LS Time to Count and be Stranded

From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Wed Sep 29 1999 - 06:57:01 BST


MOQers:
 
Its almost the 29th here in Denver, but I have to make a few short
comments before the month expires.

DENIS: I'm glad you're not done with me. I've been flirting and batting
my eye-lashes at you for a while and I'm thrilled that you've finally
noticed. But seriously, I think we agree more than the last post may
have indicated. I agreed almost entirely with your first couple of
posts. I think you raise an interesting issue in the description of the
"Gaia" theory and you're right to reference Lovelock's idea in this
context. Its the same point I was getting at with the description of the
protein explosion, where better tools and techniques altered the
organism. Its seems simple. More protein, bigger brains. But the MOQ
thing about it is the same you're getting at, i think. We participate in
the creation of the world in this sense.

I didn't mean to make a straw man out of you or paint you with too broad
a brush. I'll admit that using the one quote as if it represented your
total position isn't really fair. Sorry about that. In spite of the
rambling length, my intention was merely to focus on one issue,
solipsim. I don't want you to be angry with me,,,, just in case i need a
free place to stay in Paris. :-)

BODVAR: Thanks for the help and the kind words. WHAT STRANGE VESSEL?
There is the older issue concerning Bo's question about the intellect as
"mind". I could simply agree with Pirsig's letter, but I feel compelled
to give Bodvar a fuller answer. I think there have been plenty of good
analogies from posters so far. There are "pictures" of the mind that
don't seem to suffer too badly from the isolated subject behind the
eyes. You could imagine thoughts as GHOSTS IN THE CULTURE. Phaedrus
might say that intellect is a knife and SOM is one lousey way to slice
it. The biological analogy works well too. SOM is THE DOMINANT SPECIES
in a jungle of intellectual Quality. Comparing SOM's dominance to THE
DOMINANT CULTURE and LANGUAGE in a geopolitical sense almost fails as an
analogy, just because its so close to the literal truth. And of course
"static patterns of intellectual Quality" is a good analogy too. I don't
think any of these descriptions have that SOM sense of isolation.
Pirsig's "mind" is already "outdoors" so to speak. As a part of the very
"structure" of static reality, the intellectual level is as "outdoors"
as any field or jungle. Pirsigs intellect is connected to the rest of
reality in a way SOM can not allow. I'd say that consciousness doesn't
have a container around it. There is no cup or vessel. Its a level of
reality that we participate in, to greater and lesser degrees. I guess
you can see my verdict in this. SOM is just one painting in the gallery
of metaphysics.

ROGER: Thanks for being such a sport about everything. Your behavior is
a model of civilized debate. And I gotta give you credit for creativity.
Writing Phake-Faedrus letters is an inventive approch. I wish there was
time to do the homework assignment and give you a full-fledged response,
but I'm not sure I'd have the gumption for all that anyway. Fortunately,
John and Bodvar have come to the rescue. They both refer to some pretty
serious problems with your impersonation of Phaedrus. As Bo points out,
to have him talking about the static/Dynamic split and the four levels
in ZAMM is outside the zone of credibility. There are flags all over the
field on that play, my friend. And as John points out, Phaedrus' views
are tempered by the narrator's views. The difference between the two and
the reasons for such a split are bound up in literary conventions and
devices. It can be complicated, fuzzy and subject to various
interpetations, but clearly Phaedrus' views are not synonymous with the
MOQ. (There are some interesting reviews in the Guidebook that will shed
light on the use of multiple voices. You'll also find some good stuff on
the meaning behind his "ghost" references. It seems to me that you've
taken them sort of literally and the reviews may just alter the way you
see the "ghosts" in those quotes you've been using.) And may I be the
first to wish you a happy Halloween.

This month's topic was GREAT. I've had a blast and learned alot. Seems
like there are still some loose ends, unanswered questions and stuff.
Sorry if it seems I ignored someone's questions or comments. I feel a
loose thread or two, but time is up and the month is over. Thanks to
everyone! DMB

MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org



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