Re: MD novelty

From: marco (
Date: Wed Sep 11 2002 - 14:47:33 BST

Hi Bo, Rick

Let's begin from RMP...

".. anthropological studies of contemporary primitive tribes
suggest that stone age people were probably bound by ritual
all day long. There's a ritual for washing, for putting up
a house, for hunting, for eating and so on - so much that
the division between "ritual" and "knowledge" becomes
indistinct. In cultures without books ritual seems to be a
public library for teaching the young and preserving common
values and information".

" These rituals may be the connecting link between the social
and the intellectual levels of evolution. One can imagine
primitive song-rituals and dance-rituals associated with
certain cosmology stories, myths, which generated the first
primitive religions. From these the first intellectual truths
could have been derived".

Lila, Ch. 30

Pirsig's view (be it right or wrong) is that the "birth" of the
intellectual level occurred around the time of Socrates.

Well, no. Pirsig says that after the times of Socrates we had the
birth of the subject/object split. Intellectual patterns already
existed. Indeed, in the service of society. Socrates is an example
of intellect trying to break free from society.... he partly
failed, as he was killed. Necessary condition for intellect to
be free from society are human rights.

About the rest of your post, we are in agreement, with a little
point about DQ "intervention" (see later)

Wim wants to turn Intellect back to the Cro-Magnon era while
you think it had no effect until 1917! I leave it to you two
to have it out with each other.

And I agree with Wim that this is Pirsig's point. Intellect emerged
among stone age people. My interpretation is that it emerges from
ritual division of labour, that triggers self-awareness and reasoning
on what we do.... The point is that you wrote in an earlier post that
the white culture of 19th century was "intellect-dominated". I'm glad
you drop now that point, as in your last message you talk
about "intellect-influenced" society.

In my opinion though, the white culture of the XIXth century is an
example of social control over intellect (intellect in the service
of society). As example, that society was influenced by intellect just
like my life is influenced by my car. Influenced indeed, but according
to my will.

I think life on
earth isn't developing through
its own dynamics any more.

Nothing supports this point, actually. Indeed, we can intellectually
plan new forms of life and drive evolution much more quickly than

I find it strange if DQ
"intervenes" in the static step-stones it uses to reach new

DQ does not "intervene". It is there. We, living entities, can find DQ
by switching off our static filters. Intellectual patterns can be
switched off more easily (intellect is more dynamic than the lower
levels). Actually, I can more easily change my ideas than my genes....
that does not mean that can't biologically evolve.... just, very slowly.

There's nothing in LILA or the MoQ to suggest that DQ cannot be

If it is really destructive, I hardly see it as DQ. Indeed, we can by
mistake destroy, while in good faith trying to change for the better.



Mail Archive -
MD Queries -

To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Fri Oct 25 2002 - 16:06:31 BST