Re: MD Bush Babies

From: Monkeys' tail or (
Date: Sat Sep 28 2002 - 21:50:34 BST

PS: DMB, post just came in, very nice thanks.

Paco, A warm welcome(I have been so unpolite) that is bound to get colder

PACO: I would argue that this is an inherent STRENGTH of democracy. It
allows minorities with CONVICTION to overcome apathetic majorities.

Davor: It all depends on who is the minority doesn't it? What you call
strength i call a weakness because if the minority with conviction overcomes
desinterested majority, it might be that this minority has so much power
that there is no chance left for the majority to choose accept for the
choices that are enforced by a little group whose only interest is self
interest and power? And that is exactly what is the case right now!

PACO: Odd comment considering that the US is a republic and intentionally
(very, very intentionally) NOT a pure democracy. If you don't know why, I
suggest you read the thoughts of the founders of the constitution. All will
be made clear -- especially in regards to influential people or groups. The
bureaucracy comment is probably right on though. Even odder though is your
comment that "it might get hard to sustain" the longest surviving (and most
influential) constitution on earth.

Davor: you are very right I should not have said ''it might get hard to
sustain'', but ''it might get hard to sustain in this form''. And i have to
admit US is a republic, this does not mean it is not a democracy. And as I
said before for various reason democracy can never be pure or true or
whatever, it seems to me that the founding farters did actually wanted to
give the power to the demos, but enough of that.

PACO: If it ended there I would agree. It was one cut of the intellectual
blade. Just one. Obviously some feel it was a poorly chosen cut, others feel
it was with a dull blade. But I suggest he was shooting for moral clarity in
a sea of relativist moral confusion. The fact that we are still talking
about it seems to me to be one sign of it accomplishing its goal.

Davor: What, this is rubbish, I'm sorry should we let GWB and consorts
shoot for moral clarity? And what is moral clarity anyway? Do you trust a
government which in the past over and over again has proofed itself to be in
no way able to distinguish between self-interest, power trips, economic
advantages and sincere responsibility and morality and evolution towards
harmony and respect and dignity and...and..and, do you?

PACO: Again, a lot of Americans are relieved to find a President with the
moral clarity to use America's power, influence and moral vision to
influence the world as opposed to follow the misguided dereliction of the UN
(check out the moral credentials of the current Human Rights
Commission) or of Radical environmentalists (as opposed to
environmentalists, of which I am one). I do believe that there is a current
conflict going on between the US's vision, and an opposing vision that is
often represented in UN or other organized forums for world opinion.
Personally, I lean to the US's vision and track record, but I know the US is
often wrong and that the conflict of ideas is incredibly healthy.

Davor: A vision? I see no visions, please show me those visions, US has no
vision whatsoever, UN neither. They have no clue what to do, all they have
is approaches.

PACO: Most Americans view the Palestinian conflict as one with a clearly
more moral side. It isn't the side intentionally blowing up innocent
teenagers, it is the side that is willing to donate the organs of the
murdered teenagers to needing recipients regardless of nationality. I doubt
most Americans view it as Black or White, but they certainly understand
which side is trying (frequently poorly) to achieve peace, and which side is
trying (again poorly) to exterminate the other.

Davor: Nihilistic propaganda(again poorly), I want to speak but somebody
will be able to express it better probably.


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