Re: MD Level 5 ... ?

From: Horse (
Date: Tue Sep 15 1998 - 22:32:53 BST

Hi Magnus and Squad

> > <SNIP>The Machine Language
> > Insruction Repertoire (MLIR) and the ones and zero's are
> > constructions of Intellect.

> Yes, and so could our inorganic level be.

Umm... In which case Intellect is prior to the levels on which it is dependent.
That's stretching things a bit too far. If we follow this path we end up in the nuage
domain and the MoQ becomes no better than astrology or palm-reading.

> I think it boils down to what we mean by the term Universe. A universe
> is ALL of reality, you can't go or see beyond the borders of your own
> universe. If you do, you are not peeking outside your universe, you are
> expanding it.

Fair enough.

> So, what you do with the viruses' universe is to expand their universe
> built on ones and zeros to include our universe out here. The equivalence
> for us would be to expand our universe and be able to see the source of
> and even manipulate the laws of nature.
> What I think the metaphysics part of the MoQ says about this is that it
> is a framework for all possible universes, all possible physics. It
> doesn't matter how far you expand your universe, it's still a universe
> and can be described with the MoQ, so it still has four levels.

Why this insistence on the sanctity of 4 levels. It sounds to me like Intellect
defending it's territory. The MoQ is not (IMO) a stagnant metaphysics. It may be
part of the intellectual level, but that level is only static from a certain point of view
- it is not stagnant. The knowledge that we currently possess is insufficient to say
with any certainty that the future development of the universe will be explained by
ANY current metaphysics, let alone the MoQ.
By definition, the universe will always be the universe - this doesn't mean it is the
only universe or the only possible universe.
The MoQ currently sees reality as contained by 4 levels of PoV's. To say that this
will always be so is dogmatism - something I don't accept.

> > The one big difference here is that their environment is a product of
> > the persons that I mentioned earlier. Persons would exist without
> > this environment, the virus wouldn't.

> I disagree, the viruses are not dependent on persons. They are
> constructed by persons, yes. But they would still be around if we
> committed genocide.

Computer viruses and L5 are dependent upon the technology of L4. There may be
graceful degradation but unless L5 can maintain it's own environment and then
they will die. Currently, L5 is not developed - it is nascent and highly reactive. If
I'm right about it, then there is still an awful lot of latching to do. I'm not saying
that L5 is fully formed and operating as I think that it has an awfully long way to

> > The ones and zeroes and the
> > MLIR are an ANALOGUE of the inorganic level and the 'laws' of
> > physics. But unlike the 'true' (original?) inorganic level they are a
> > construction dependent on the existence of the 4 levels

> There is no true or original inorganic level. Our inorganic level is
> an example, or an object to use object oriented lingo of the class
> "inorganic levels" described by the MoQ.

As far as I'm aware, what we term the inorganic level is the level which consist of
non-living stuff. Particles, molecules, rocks, water, planets galaxies etc. Inorganic
patterns of value. A floppy disk is built from inorganic material. Now all of a
sudden we have parallel inorganic levels, parallel organic levels etc. This is
starting to sound like the Ptolemaic explanations for why Mars goes backwards in
its path around the earth. The MoQ is supposed to make reality simpler to

> > This is where the SO platypus exists. SO thinking (SOTAQI)
> > excludes PoV's that are not within the 4 levels.
> Come on, SO thinking doesn't have a clue about the levels in the
> first place.

I'm on dodgy ground here, but if SO thinking is Q-Intellect then how can Q-
Intellect fail to be aware of itself and the lower levels. Perhaps Bo could help here.
> > We're so used to thinking in terms of Intellect being the crowning
> > glory of creation that it is virtually impossible for many people to
> > accept that the coming AI's and ALife's are any more than science
> > fantasy - personally I blame religion :).
> In what way would AI and ALife be more than intellectual patterns?

In the same way that Intellect is more than social patterns. Additionally, an AI or
an ALife is more than JUST L5 patterns.
A person comes about by the interaction of IntPoV's. IntPoV's emerge from the
interaction of SocPoV's etc. As I've said before, the whole is greater than the sum
of the parts.


"Making history, it turned out, was quite easy.
It was what got written down.
It was as simple as that!"
Sir Sam Vimes.

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