hi Troy and squad
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, glove wrote:
> i am a triangle in space, with my boundaries defined by me, my knowledge,
> awareness of self. outside of the me, there exists a complementary
> that contains everything not-me. i meet Troy. Troy also is a triangle in
> space, bounded by his me-ness, and also possessing a complementary
> containing everything that is not-Troy. given that the me-triangle and the
> Troy-triangle cannot physically share the same space, and we cannot
> communicate at a distance, how do we communicate?
we won't be communicating anymore, if i can't shove you out of
conventional subjective-objective thinking. okay, okay, i'm lying. SOM
thinking is better than no thinking at all.
in your trangle example, as soon as you meet Troy, your triangles overlap.
the triangle you mentioned does not exist in space, so the you-triangle
and the Troy-triangle can easily overlap, and that is how we communicate.
but i'm shaking my head sadly, for you did not get my point.
Troy, i will continue to try and 'get your point' by asking you a few
questions, and please, there is no reason for sadness here. why do you say
the me-triangle doesnt exist in space? for it does (for the purpose of the
thought experiment), and it is impossible for the me triangle to overlap
with another, for a triangle exists only in 2 dimensional space. more
properly, i should have used 3-D tetrahedrons to describe the thought
experiment but i felt that is unnecessarily complicated and i believe
triangles will serve the same purpose. for this experiment, we will simply
be working in 2 dimensions instead of 3. can you see now that the triangles
cannot possibly overlap? we dont want to mix apples and oranges here which i
think you are doing inadvertantly.
you recently wrote (concerning the trouble of using ones and zeros):
> Troy, i would say this is the first moral conflict Pirsig describes, the
> chaotic-inorganic conflict. it could be said that everything in existence
> composed of inorganic atoms, a one, and everything not in existence is
> composed of chaos, or zero. however this would be speaking SOMically, of
> course. so we have to substitute value for existence to speak correctly in
> MOQ speak, otherwise we create a platypus! for how can something exist
> doesnt exist? so we can then say everything of value is a one, and
> everything without value, a zero. that is indeed about as simple as it
what is your meaning? Quality comes before everything that exists and
everything that does not exist, right? Quality comes before the past?
Quality comes before the future? the relationship between one and zero is
Quality, for without value, there would be no one and there would be no
Troy, i am unsure you are grasping the fundamentals of the MOQ as described
by Pirsig and so you are not grasping my meaning. to say something exists is
not a proper MOQ way of speaking, it is subjectively acknowledging that both
subjects and objects exist, and nothing else. we have to speak in terms of
value when using the MOQ. all your questions of existence are meaningless in
terms of value. the relationship between 1 and 0 could be said to be Quality
it is true, but 1 and 0 themselves are Quality as well. you are not saying
anything that i do not already acknowledge.
(regarding "the universe" and its complement) you wrote:
> Troy, it so happens i have been doing some serious thinking along these
> lines. first of all, i cannot value 'nothing' and therefore i have no
> relationship with it that i am aware of :)
bop. it's Quality. do you feel enlightened? you seem to be stuck on
SOM, so i'll entertain it and put it in a framework you can understand:
you are a triangle of awareness, physical self, and knowledge. outside of
you (this is bleeding with subjective/objectiveness, mind you) is a big
thing with a triangle shaped hole in it. you. not you. Quality connects
it all. Quality carves your triangle out of "the rest of it", and you
carve your triangle out of (and in to) Quality.
one more time, on a larger scale, it is important to understand that there
is more to it than "all of it".
Troy, Quality is everything. the big 'thing' with the hole in it is the
complementary triangle i am using for the thought experiment. i will attempt
to better explain my thinking on my little experiment. since my awareness is
bounded by my inside triangle, i cannot directly 'touch' my complement, or
the outside of my triangle. the same is true for the Troy-triangle. how can
they communicate? both triangles exist in 2 dimensions and cannot overlap.
it does no good for them to become congruent either, for the boundaries keep
awareness inside the triangles even should they be congruent.
forget about the 'me' triangle carving anything out of Quality and Quality
carving anything out of the 'not-me' complementary triangle. that doesnt
tell me anything i do not already know. tell me instead how our two
triangles, who meet in 2 dimensional space, are able to communicate at a
best wishes to all,
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