From: Elizaphanian (Elizaphanian@members.v21.co.uk)
Date: Mon Nov 25 2002 - 08:39:52 GMT
Hello David,
There's not a lot more I want to say on this; I think I want to try and draw
some elements together into a conclusion.
I think the differences between us (between our 'traditions') can be
summarised in the following way:
1. You see 'mystical experience' as foundational, whereas I see it as an
epiphenomenon.
2. I see 'tradition' as (largely) determinative, you see it as problematic.
Beyond that, we get into an argument over whether someone like Eckhart
supports my point of view or yours. Well, it's perfectly possible that you
know more about him than me, but quoting Pirsig's casual discussion of him
is not a good start. If you can show me a place where Eckhart describes his
experience as 'foundational' (in the 'Jamesian' sense) or his 'tradition' as
problematic then we'll have a good place for further dialogue.
My point about 'contemporary' understandings of mysticism is not affected by
your peyote references et al: the question is how to interpret that data. If
you see mysticism as about 'mystical experience' then you will interpret the
data in that light; if not, not. The same can apply to some ambiguous
passages in Eckhart of course, but much less so.
Of course, I'm describing what you would no doubt see as a 'church bound'
understanding of mysticism. Pity that Christianity is the one religion that
isn't accepted as having something to say on the subject. If I talked about
'mantras' I'm sure you wouldn't have come out with your "I won't mention
Sam's attempt to paint linguistic rituals as something mystical. I won't say
anything about Sam's attempt to portray static verbal repition as a dynamic
experience." That just reveals your cultural blinkers.
I'll comment on your 'ritual' quotes separately.
Sam
www.elizaphanian.v-2-1.net/home.html
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