From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Sun Dec 08 2002 - 22:20:53 GMT
Dear David B. and Sam,
David, you wrote 8 Dec 2002 13:37:57 -0700:
'full comprehension must preceed any valid criticism'
Then no criticism is valid and valid criticism of existing systems of ideas
precludes creating new ones and maybe even improving existing ones.
In Pirsig's words of chapter 26 of 'Lila':
'Philosophologists not only start by putting the cart first; they usually
forget the horse entirely. They say first you should read what all the great
philosophers of history have said and then you should decide what you want
to say. The catch here is that by the time you've read what all the great
philosophers of history have said you'll be at least two hundred years old.
A second catch is that these great philosophers are very persuasive people
and if you read them innocently you may be carried away by what they say and
never see what they missed.'
Is that what we should be doing here on this list, philosophology...?
You also wrote:
'the measure of a myth or a ritual is in its ability to portray DQ, its
transparency to transcendence. ... If rituals and ritualistic religion is
helpful to "socially pattern-dominated people", what helps intellectually
inclined people?'
I'd be a bit more cautious and say that ONE OF THE MEASURES of a myth or a
ritual is in its ability to portray DQ. Other measures are in its support
for existing social and intellectual patterns of values.
According to the paragraphs that follow the one you quoted from chapter 30
of 'Lila', it is lunacy and mysticism that "intellectual pattern dominated
people" need and that 'keeps religions going':
'The Metaphysics of Quality identifies religious mysticism with Dynamic
Quality. It says the subject-object people are almost right when they
identify religious mysticism with insanity. The two are almost the same.
Both lunatics and mystics have freed themselves from the conventional static
intellectual patterns of their culture. The only difference is that the
lunatic has shifted over to a private static pattern of his own, whereas the
mystic has abandoned all static patterns in favor of pure Dynamic Quality.'
To the extent that ZAMM is autobiographical, Pirsig is certainly entitled to
say this, at least with regard to lunacy. The whole MoQ no more than the
private static pattern of a lunatic ...?! Maybe we are taking him too
seriously? (-:
'sometimes the patient, in a moment of Zen wisdom, sees the superficiality
of both his own contrary patterns and the cultural patterns, sees that the
one gets him electrically clubbed day after day and the other sets him free
from the institution, and thereupon makes a wise mystic decision to get the
hell out of there by whatever avenue is available.'
Like you David, I don't exactly see how the anecdote about Aquinas stopping
'his writing and his liturgical endeavours' after getting an insight during
the Eucharist supports the value of such writing and such rituals...
In the words of David:
'if the rituals and doctrines seem like straw to one whose just had a
mystical experience, it is hard to imagine how we can say they reflect those
experience well.'
May we ask what according to you is the value of YOUR present writing and
liturgical endeavours, Sam? Is it more than 'support for existing social and
intellectual patterns of values'?
Which somehow reminds me of a quote from George Fox, the supposed founder of
the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) ...:
'The Scriptures were the prophets' words and Christ's and the apostles'
words and what as they spoke they enjoyed and possessed and had it from the
Lord. Then what had any to do with the Scriptures, but as they came to the
Spirit that gave them forth. You will say, Christ saith this, and the
apostles say this; but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of Light and
hast walked in the Light, and what thou speakest is it inwardly from God?'
To what extent are the book your are writing and the role (I suppose) you
have in Anglican services inspired by your mystical experiences, Sam?
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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