From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Aug 06 2004 - 23:46:24 BST
"God is an extension of social order value."
-that's the old god, long live the new god....
Read Don Cupitt's 'After God' if you want to know more.
His Heideggger-ish book called 'The Religion Of Being'
is also very good.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau@sbcglobal.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> On 31 July 2004 5:13 PM Johnny writes to David:
>
> Johnny:
>
> You see, I don't think that mere contemplation and study, whether written
in
> language or illustrated or mimed, or just daydreamed about, makes a new
> level above social patterns. I know that everyone here will say that I'm
> wrong about this, and I don't deny that thinking and pursuing and
developing
> a field of thought is an intellectual activity, but I think that's not the
> same thing as being a fourth level pattern.
>
> I arrive at this awkward position because I am trying to make the
> relationship of each level to the ones above and below the same kind of
> relationship.
>
>
> Hi Johnny, David and all,
>
> joe: my view of MOQ evolution.
>
> Bo Skutvik tried to describe an intellectual pattern. It was difficult
> inasmuch as the inorganic, organic, or social patterns were not described
in
> differentiated-pattern terms. It is enough to say that everyone knows what
I
> mean when I talk about the different levels. I focus on the mystical
> experience of DQ! I get into deeper water!
>
> I go back to Pirsig's feeling of degeneracy when he made the division
> between DQ and SQ. I say there is a mystical experience of DQ and a
> degenerate mystical experience of a pattern of DQ. The pattern is SQ.
>
> I want to talk about Newton's creation of the law of gravity. Was Newton
> latching the dq of the inorganic order by an sq law of gravity? Is gravity
> experienced mystically by a baby, and by all?
>
> An organic, seeking food, has a purpose for action beyond gravity. The
> organic order 'purpose' does not seem to be the gravity of the inorganic
> order. Is 'purpose' an organic order pattern? 'Purpose' attracts
arguments.
> What purpose? Whose purpose? Life is anti-gravity. Is organic dq value
> correctly interpreted as mystically experienced purpose? Memories of
> Tennyson, and What Is So Rare as a Day in June.
>
> The social order is a beginning for morality, three levels of activity,
> three values of dq to discriminate. Positive and negative cancel out
> producing neutral. Father, Mother, child, three? Morality! Existence! How
a
> pattern exists will determine its place. A mystical connection to
existence
> is necessary to determine order. IMO the social order begins a morality of
> three? Existence is experienced mystically. Like purpose and gravity it is
> never experienced outside a pattern. Is the mystical experience of
existence
> subjective experience? No! Subjective experience is a pattern sq. A
pattern
> experienced by the individual is created by value. Existence is part of
that
> value. Is the mystical experience of existence truth? Existence as a value
> is indiscriminate. All things are possible. Truth is the value of order in
> an individual pattern, not the value of order itself. Freedom!
>
> Pirsig found a one-word metaphysics of 'quality' too limiting. Is there no
> other mystical experience outside of gravity, purpose, and existence?
Bodvar
> Skutvik suggested s/o is a mystical experience of an intellectual order
> pattern. I add 'unfinished', 'outside of existence', as another element to
> the mystical experience of s/o. That is a huge tangle, 'unfinished s/o',
to
> be mystical experience. Can all intellectual patterns be described as sq
> unfinished s/o? What about mathematics? What about coherence? What about
> law? Subjective, objective does not describe intellectual patterns. The
MOQ
> is very specific about that!
>
> IMO the activity created by an 'unfinished s/o' pattern is both inside
> gravity, purpose and existence and outside of them? Is this the basis for
> the intellectual order? If it is then the intellectual might be said to be
> out of gravity, purpose and existence. The urge of unfinished in
> intellectual mystical experience is dogmatized into a religion in the
order
> of existence by the intellectual order. Story-telling, faith,
salesmanship,
> creativity, the groove and many other activities embody this unfinished
s/o
> pattern!
>
> I mystically distinguish dq value in four orders. IMO dq is not existence
> outside these orders. Existence identifies the social order value. Dq in
the
> inorganic, the organic, the social, and the intellectual order are values
in
> those orders not a pool existing apart to be drawn from. IMO the existence
> of dq and the existence of God are not in the same order. Dq is an
> evolutionary value, God is an extension of social order value.
>
> Mystical experience is not degenerate-mystical quality. The intellectual
> order, though creative, is immoral when it denies mystical experience.
> According to the moq intellectual is at the top of the moral order. IMO an
> intellectual pattern forms out of mystical experience. In one sense I
create
> myself. I am never finished, and the 'unfinished' aspect of s/o always
looks
> to mystical experience for verification. Intersubjective agreement! As a
> sentient I am an inorganic, organic, social, intellectual being. As an
> intellectual pattern, I have work to do.
>
> More thoughts! IMO evolution is from the inorganic order. Each order
evolves
> organic, social, and intellectual patterns in response to dq. Each order
> latches dq from the one below. IMO only from the order of existence can
> unfinished s/o evolve. Does this description of patterns help examine the
> relationships of each level to the ones above and below?
>
> I am unable to remember a published source for my formulation of these
> patterns. I hope they are in the spirit of Robert Pirsig, Joseph Campbell,
> and George Gurdjieff. As I reread this I am struck by the proofs for God's
> existence from Aquinas. The unmoved mover, the supreme goal, the order of
> existence, the creator the uncaused cause. Either I have been horribly
> prejudiced by my education, or mystical DQ has been observed, and used
well
> or ill by many thinkers.
>
> Self-awareness, individuality, is another question.
>
> Joe Maurer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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