From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Aug 20 2004 - 21:58:14 BST
Hi Scott
I think Pirsig's notion of intellect is
based on the sort of intellect that is able
to work its wonders of control and analysis
via SOM on the 4th level. So given this
view of intellect as what exists before SOM
intellect -able to deteach itself from all other
to objectify it- then he says that the wholeness
before the SOM form of development is pre-intellectual.
But I also agree with Scott that there is something idea-intellect
like about all the activity/creativity that occurs in the cosmos prior
to 4th level intellect in Pirsig's terms. So Pirsig fails to nail
this aspect of intelligence in all of cosmic creativity, i.e. pre-human
intellect even. I in fact think this helps my case for feeling that the
realm of DQ possibilities -sort of dreams and ideas- is prior to
SQ actuality. What we mean by SQ Being is the very thingness-repetition
that gives it duration-being-pattern-sameness. I cannot imagine SQ before
DQ, but I can imagine a dream-time of pure DQ without SQ, where there is
pure flux, no repetition, where all bursts of activity is new and therefore
pure flux.
Only the cessation of DQ, the plunge into repetition can bring about reality
as we know it. And this plunge is the first differentiation. DQ plunges into
repetition, SQ gains some kind of autonomy and separation from DQ,
it is free to repeat, free of change and creativity, DQ forsakes power
over the realm of SQ, only in this self-alienation of Quality into SQ/DQ
is it possible to open the space where there can be awareness and a content
of that awareness, an Other, with its own duration-being, as if DQ drew
an image of its self in the sand and called it a reflection, prior to the SQ
line drawing there was no Other to experience, separation is the mother of
experience. SQ is the self-expression of DQ to itself!
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Turner" <paul@turnerbc.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: MD Plotinus, Pirsig and Wilber
> Hi Scott
>
> Scott said:
> Barfield, on the other hand does the job right (and as I've said many
> times, Barfield does all these things that I am criticizing the MOQ for
> not doing).
>
> Paul:
> On the other hand, as I recall Barfield from "Saving the Appearances,"
> he doesn't provide a metaphysics. He uses "the unrepresented" to
> designate that part of reality which he doesn't want to explain
> (although, interestingly, he sometimes refers to is as "particles") but
> has to assume is there and is independent of the mind. He also assumes
> that the mind is already there, waiting to convert these particles into
> representations.
>
> Scott said:
> The melody, or the note, exists ab initio as a whole (which implies
> partness, and being part of a greater whole), and the best analogy for
> this sort of thing in our experience is the idea.
>
> Paul:
> Is it?
>
> Scott said:
> So to call its pre-perceived state "pre-intellectual" or
> "undifferentiated" is a mistake.
>
> Paul:
> Only if you think, as you do, that ideas are fundamental reality.
>
> Scott said:
> It is only that because we can't picture a non-spatio-temporal holon (to
> use Wilber's term) that leads us to assign these epithets, a fallacy
> deriving from what Coleridge calls "the despotism of the eye".
> Perception, then, turns the idea into an object of space, time, and
> mass, which is the same kind of thing as our turning our ideas into
> speech. This is how mind and matter can be discursively unified (felt
> unity is another matter, requiring Reason rather than understanding).
> Matter is the speech of the intellect of the other, mind is what I turn
> into speech for others.
>
> Paul:
> What is "the intellect of the other?"
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
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