From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 2004 - 20:09:38 BST
Paul:
> There is no need to deduce the existence of something beyond experience
> when you take something that is experienced as the starting point of
> your metaphysics. The avoidance of this is a good thing.
DM: Yes but I would add that Pirsig goes
from experience to cosmology to examine
how SQ & DQ can depict a cosmic evolution
that contains levels, the levels and SQ patterns
are objective in the sense of being patterns we
can describe, talk about, expt with, agree upon. Not objective
in the subject-object polar-dualist metaphysics sense.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Turner" <paul@turnerbc.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: MD The empirical verifiability of value
> Ham
>
> Ham said:
> If mind and matter are completely separate, each contained in its own
> pattern type, how are they "capable of each containing the other without
> contradiction"?
>
> Paul:
> The important statement here is that mind and matter are completely
> separate levels of *value*.
>
> The intellectual patterns of mind depend on cultural patterns which in
> turn depend on biological then inorganic patterns, as such they may be
> said to be contained in inorganic patterns but, because the levels are
> not continuous, they are not themselves *composed of* inorganic patterns
> of atoms and molecules as a materialist would have it.
>
> The scientific description of "matter" is an intellectual pattern which
> describes and predicts the behaviour of inorganic patterns but the
> inorganic patterns themselves are not "only in the mind" as an idealist
> would have it.
>
> Mind is not an extension of matter. Matter is not an extension of mind.
> Both are an extension of value.
>
> Ham said:
> Again, the author's conclusion contradicts his premise. Mental patterns
> do originate out of organic nature.
>
> Paul:
> Not according to the MOQ which says that *social patterns* originate
> from organic nature. Intellectual patterns originate out of social
> patterns.
>
> Ham said:
> There is certainly a commonality in Pirsig's development of Quality and
> Value. What troubles me, however, is the absence of man's role in the
> MOQ
>
> Paul:
> I don't think that man's role is absent from the MOQ. LILA is all about
> man's role in evolution.
>
> Ham said:
> ...the author's insistence on an empirical basis for it (despite his
> rejection of SOM)...
>
> Paul:
> You seem to be equating "empirical" with "objective," this may be
> confusing you.
>
> Ham said:
> ...and, of course, what seems to be a deliberate avoidance of an a
> priori source.
>
> Paul:
> There is no need to deduce the existence of something beyond experience
> when you take something that is experienced as the starting point of
> your metaphysics. The avoidance of this is a good thing.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
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