From: Charles Roghair (ctr@pacificpartssales.com)
Date: Tue Oct 19 2004 - 19:30:22 BST
Scott:
I didn't attack faith, I qualified it.
And God was present here in the MoQ long before I was or I wouldn't
have brought it up; I was making a point.
Before I wrote about Faith, I described my disappointment at finding
God here. If the MoQ were not non-theistic by definition, I would not
have come here in the first place.
Quality contains mythology. Mythology contains God.
And it's you who brings this discussion down with convoluted, esoteric
pseudo-mystic double-speak to the latter.
I'm willing to drop it here and now.
Chuck
On Oct 19, 2004, at 9:02 AM, Scott Roberts wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> You started this thread, remember? And you started it with a very broad
> attack on religion. I belong to no religious organization, but know
> enough
> about it to defend it from your over-generalized attack. Now you accuse
> religion's defenders of "pushing their agenda" in this forum. In
> short, you
> think it is ok to attack faith, but it is not allowable for faith's
> defenders to speak in reply. Is this your idea of high quality
> intellectual
> discussion?
>
> - Scott
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Chuck Roghair <ctr@pacificpartssales.com>
>> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>> Date: 10/19/2004 9:10:09 AM
>> Subject: RE: MD On Faith
>>
>> Sam:
>>
>> Sam, you said:
>>
>> "Hmm. I once read a description of the creed as being 'mystical
>> theology
>> defined dogmatically', which I think sums it up. If you come at the
>> creed
>> expecting a list of beliefs then that is what you will find. They
>> need to
> be
>> understood within the context of an ongoing faith tradition, and not
>> abstracted (again, a SOMish pursuit)."
>>
>> And then:
>>
>> "It's the same as a zen koan. If you have to ask what is the sound of
>> one
>> hand clapping, then you
>> haven't got it - it strikes you as 'at least a contradictory
>> description,
> if
>> not outright
>> gibberish'. Quite so."
>>
>> <Chuck responds:>
>>
>> Are you saying that the following is the Catholic equivalent to "What
>> is
> the
>> sound of one hand clapping?":
>>
>> I believe in God, the Father almighty,
>> creator of heaven and earth.
>> I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
>> who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
>> born of the Virgin Mary,
>> suffered under Pontius Pilate,
>> was crucified, died, and was buried;
>> he descended to the dead.
>> On the third day he rose again;
>> he ascended into heaven,
>> he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
>> and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
>> I believe in the Holy Spirit,
>> the holy catholic church,
>> the communion of saints,
>> the forgiveness of sins,
>> the resurrection of the body,
>> and the life everlasting.
>>
>> AMEN
>>
>>
>> Is that your position, Sam? Comparing "What is the sound of one hand
>> clapping?" to what is essentially a loyalty oath? And you're a
>> priest?
>>
>> I've sat through thousands of masses and heard armies of Catholic
>> zombies
>> respond dutifully in mechanical cadence over and over. Even as a
>> child, I
>> saw through the a whole charade as empty, meaningless posturing.
>>
>> This is how religion at the Social Level is attempting to dominate
>> individuals at the Intellectual level which is the real immoral act
>> and a
>> true sin. Calling the Apostle's creed a Zen Koan is just a lie; Sam,
>> you
>> are the sinner!
>>
>> That creed is nothing, if not a literal list of beliefs. If you can't
>> acknowledge that fact, at the very least, I see little point in any
> further
>> discussion.
>>
>> This is why the MoQ is losing folks like Ian who are genuine
>> proponents of
>> Pirsig's original vision.
>>
>> Pushing the agenda of institutionalized religion here is a travesty
>> and
> I'm
>> tired of it too. Please take it elsewhere.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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