From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Thu Dec 16 2004 - 09:56:24 GMT
This is becoming a very interesting thread - despite my aversion to the word
"mysticism" :-)
So I have renamed to keep a separate record.
Thanks
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phaedrus Wolff" <PhaedrusWolff@carolina.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: MD Is the MoQ still in the Kantosphere?
> dmb says:
> Well, for the sake of clarity and for the sake of MANAGABLE parameters,
let
> me just ask you to explain Socrates' mysticism as it compares to what
Pirsig
> has said about it. I think we agree on this, but it would be nice to see
> somebody make the case just to see what it might look like. I'm thinking
> that Pirsig's lengthy discussion of insanity and mysticism would shed lots
> of light on the divine madness Plato wrote about. At least for starters.
>
> Hi dmb,
>
> I found this, where Mike King is asking the question;
> "Is Socrates a Mystic?"
> http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/essays/essaysukc/socmysd.html
>
> <snip>
> It is impossible for a soul that has never seen the truth to enter into
our
> human shape; it takes a man to understand by the use of universals, and to
> collect out of the multiplicity of sense-impressions a unity arrived at by
a
> process of reason. Such a process is simply the recollection of the things
> which our soul once perceived when it took its journey with a god, looking
> down from above on the things to which we now ascribe reality and gazing
> upwards towards what is truly real. That is why it is right that the soul
of
> the philosopher alone should regain its wings; for it is always dwelling
in
> memory as best it may upon those things which a god owes his divinity to
> dwelling upon. It is only by the right use of such aids to recollection,
> which form a continual initiation into the perfect mystic vision that a
man
> can become perfect in the true sense of the word. Because he stands apart
> from the common objects of human ambition and applies himself to the
divine,
> he is reproached by most men for being out of his wits; they do not
realize
> that he is in fact possessed by a god. [ Plato, Phaedrus and Letters VII
and
> VIII, Trans.: Walter Hamilton, Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1973, p. 55 ]
> </snip>
>
> In the end, he answers the Question;
> <snip>
> I believe that this inquiry into the possible mystical status of Socrates
> has brought to light some important further questions for mysticism in the
> West, as outlined above. An examination of Buddhist thought would be
useful
> in this context for the fine-grained distinctions between ratiocination
(or
> cogitation) and meditation, and the role of thought in preparing the mind
> for silence of the mind. This would help place Western philosophy in
> context. A clearer picture of the Indian view on jnani would be useful,
and
> the exploration of Neoplatonism and Gnosticism in terms of the Buddhist
and
> Hindu concepts would be valuable. Finally it might be possible to better
> judge the true role of jnani in the development of the West (giving us a
> better understanding of Eckhart for example) and its relationship with
> devotional mysticism.
>
> As I have argued both for a clear distinction between jnani and bhakti and
> for their inseparable intertwining, perhaps one could find a route to the
> devotional for our predominantly lay culture through a better
understanding
> of jnani. Our understanding of Socrates is dependent on the distinction
> between jnani and bhakti, and I believe that it is central to all
> understanding of mysticism.
> </snip>
>
> What you think?
>
> Chin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 4:33 PM
> Subject: RE: MD Is the MoQ still in the Kantosphere?
>
>
> > Sam, Chin, MSH and all MOQers:
> >
> > Phaedrus Wolff said:
> > Socrates is my favorite mystic. The way he defended himself in the
> Apology,
> > and the way he faced death in Phaedo by themselves show a man who's fear
> was
> > absent from the hear-and-now, prior to any Bibles being written.
> Throughout
> > the stories of Socrates we know he hears divine voices, and he goes into
> > deep trance states, but out of these deep trance states seems to come
> > nothing to add to the dialogues as to the nature of the current
dialogues.
> > There is no denial that Socrates thoughts came from intuition -- is
there?
> > Would you not describe intuition as Mystic? (I'm not posing this
question
> as
> > a statement, but a question) Throughout the dialogues, he spoke of
> > immorality in the form of a soul and reincarnation.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > It entirely depends on what you mean by "intuition". If you were
refering
> to
> > a hunch or a feeling, I'd say no. But since you're talking about
> mysticism,
> > divine madness, and being the wisest of all for knowing that he didn't
> know
> > anything, then I'd have to say yes....
> >
> > Chin (PW) continued:
> > I think some of our problems with the way we look at the ancients is
that
> we
> > are looking at them in a Western 'intelligence' mastery as opposed to an
> > Eastern 'spirituality' mastery. If we look at Socrates as a spiritual
> master
> > (midwife), and he himself claims this in some of the dialogues,
> "Theatetus"
> > being one of the strongest, then he is saying that his students
(disciples
> > or whatever you want to call them) do not learn from him. He says
> something
> > to the nature of their concepts are born into their own minds and not
from
> > his, through a spiritual awakening from the silence of the mind.
> >
> > dmb replies:
> > Yes! I have been investigating the background of Socrates world for
> reasons
> > unrelated to this forum. (I've been looking into the myth of Orpheus for
> > about four years.) And it seems that the ancient Greeks in that period
> > leading up to the Sophists and Plato and all that Pirsig discusses were
> > positively saturated with mystery cults. They had a highly developed
> > "technology" for spiritual transformation. I learned that the
Pythagorians
> > were actually mystics who were heavily steeped in Orphic literature.
> Looking
> > back at them we had only seen numbers and geometry, but music, poetry
and
> > mysticism were just as big in their thinking. If this notion is new to
> > anyone, you're not alone. Its at least partly based on archeological
> > discoveries we simply did not have before and there seems to be a shift
in
> > the scholarship, as a result or as a co-incidence I do not know.
> >
> > Chin said:
> > I would find it quite difficult not to see Socrates as a mystic, and I
> could
> > carry this argument further if needed, but I feel the answer to the idea
> of
> > Socrates or other mystics might come from Western or Eastern definition
of
> > 'Mystic' -- or maybe even how we define mystic as dependent on each of
our
> > different cultures that make up Western or Eastern thought. I think
maybe
> I
> > am defining mystic as something other than 'sense' intuition which
> confuses
> > intuition as I see it, sense the word 'sense' comes from an already
> defined
> > experience, and may be where Pirsig says Western thought confuses
> intuition.
> > Raw intuition would appear to me to be a form of mysticism as it holds
no
> > limits to what is taught, or what Socrates called 'Imitative poetry'.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > Well, for the sake of clarity and for the sake of MANAGABLE parameters,
> let
> > me just ask you to explain Socrates' mysticism as it compares to what
> Pirsig
> > has said about it. I think we agree on this, but it would be nice to see
> > somebody make the case just to see what it might look like. I'm thinking
> > that Pirsig's lengthy discussion of insanity and mysticism would shed
lots
> > of light on the divine madness Plato wrote about. At least for starters.
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> > Mail Archives:
> > Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> > Nov '02 Onward -
> http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
> >
> > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
> >
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward -
http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Dec 16 2004 - 10:16:11 GMT