From: Scott Roberts (jse885@localnet.com)
Date: Fri Feb 25 2005 - 03:22:15 GMT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ant McWatt" <antmcwatt@hotmail.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 2:54 PM
Subject: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
Scott Roberts stated February 21st:
Ant,
Scott wrote:
Most of my criticisms of the MOQ derive from two sources. One comes from my
thinking about consciousness and language, and the other comes from the
Buddhist doctrine that form is formlessness, formlessness is form. It is my
opinion that the MOQ has not grasped this.
Ant McWatt comments:
Except it definitely has, as emphasised by italics in Section 2.1.1. of my
PhD thesis (though I've used CAPITALS below to replace the italics):
Scott:
My first thought on reading this was that if Pirsig has grasped the doctrine
of the Middle Way, then he was intellectually misleading to have dumbed down
Lila's discussion of mysticism, since you just can't get from ZAMM and Lila
the idea that DQ is SQ, SQ is DQ. (I think also that using DQ and SQ rather
than formlessness and form makes this even more difficult -- form can be
seen as the interaction of the dynamic and the static, with formlessness
being identical to their interaction -- two forces of one Power, as
Coleridge has it.) But I think it is more likely that he just hasn't quite
grasped the full import of the doctrine. He says (NOT in Lila or ZAMM, note)
"In Buddhism, form and formlessness, freedom and order, co-exist."
Co-existence is a long way from identity of contradictories.
In sum, then, when you say "As a development of Zen Buddhism, IT'S CRITICAL
TO REALISE THAT THE MOQ CAN BE PERCEIVED AS REFLECTING THE CIRCLE OF
ENLIGHTENMENT found in Buddhist thought..." then my reaction is (a) no one
has a chance or realizing this unless they have read your thesis and/or has
gotten further communication from Pirsig's 1999a, and (b) they will still
have an inadequate view of the circle of enlightenment, though better than
what they would get just from reading ZAMM and Lila.
- Scott
[From Ant's thesis]
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As a development of Zen Buddhism, IT'S CRITICAL TO REALISE THAT THE MOQ CAN
BE PERCEIVED AS REFLECTING THE CIRCLE OF ENLIGHTENMENT found in Buddhist
thought where an adherent (such as a young monk) begins at 'the world of
form' (typically perceived at this juncture dualistically, as in SOM) and
proceeds to an understanding of 'formlessness' (termed 'Dynamic Quality' by
Pirsig) to obtain 180 degrees enlightenment. The student then returns with
this new knowledge into 'the world of form' to achieve full (or 360 degrees)
enlightenment or Buddhahood (in which Dynamic Quality is perceived via the
static quality patterns).
"In Buddhism, the world can be described in terms of 'The First Principle',
sometimes called 'Formlessness' or 'nothingness' or 'freedom' which
parallels the treatment of Quality in ZMM. The world can also be described
in terms of 'The Second Principle' of 'Form' or 'order' which parallels the
treatment of quality in LILA. In Buddhism, form and formlessness, freedom
and order, co-exist." (Pirsig 1999a)
i.e. one should not be seeking to arrive at recognising Dynamic Quality but
to a more profound understanding. 'The teaching of emptiness is actually an
affirmation of the dynamic interconnectedness of all things.' (Burton, 2001,
p.178) The treatment of Quality through ZMM (its formlessness) and LILA
(its forms) can, when taken together, be read as reflecting the circle of
enlightenment; both texts are constructed as Western versions of a Zen koan
(literally puzzling story or question) in order to assist a more
Western-orientated mind achieve enlightenment.
"Everybody knows what quality is. Some people know that they know it, and
other people, particularly Freshman rhetoric students, don't know that they
know it. This is in accord with the Soto Zen Buddhist doctrine that
everyone is enlightened. What occurs at 'enlightenment' is the falling away
of the illusion that one is not enlightened. But the enlightenment has been
there all along." (Pirsig, 1997d)
To use Pirsig's terminology, enlightenment as such entails an awareness of
Dynamic Quality through static quality patterns. This is illustrated by
Cooper (2002b, p.18):
"When enlightened [a person] is once again aware of the mountains as
genuinely present, but in a quite different register of awareness from his
original, naïve one. It is not simply that he appreciates their dependent
status: rather he has become capable of those 'double exposures' through
which a mountain both 'dissolves' into and 'condenses' a world, and is both
a unique, palpable particular, yet an expression of a 'wondrous' and
'advancing' whole."
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Remember Pirsig has read through this text a number of times to ensure it
reflects his ideas accurately and such an important section would not have
been allowed to pass uncorrected. Moreover, he noted to me after reading
the first draft of the thesis that in this respect there is an identity
between his and Nagarjuna's philosophy (of the Middle Way). Even in
Pirsig's recent comments in the Copleston annotations and "Lila's Child"
there is an emphasis on emptiness/nothingness rather than nihilism.
I'll address your other points later Scott but as the above issue was
critical it merited an immediate response.
Best wishes,
Anthony.
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