From: Adam Watt (adamwatt@mac.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 2005 - 14:53:58 GMT
Hilarious.
Clueless in all respects, but very funny.
Thanks Ham :)
On Sunday, February 27, 2005, at 09:41 am, hampday@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Arlo--
>
> I wrote:
>> In music it [nihilism] has taken the form
>> of "punk rock" whose chaotic song patterns and morbid or obscene
>> lyrics
>> depict life's meaninglessness and amorality.
>
> You replied:
>> While you make many good points about nihilism, the punk is me has to
>> take
>> some umbridge at this inaccurate categorization. Rock music has its
> origins
>> in social protest of injustice and inequality. It became a
>> caricaturish
>> mockery of itself when it became commoditized and embraced by the very
>> establishment it sought to criticize. "Punk" was a movement in rock to
>> strip it of its ridiculous commercial veneer and reclaim it as a form
>> of
>> social rebellion.
>>
>> In this way, "punk" is not nihilistic. Punk is counter-cultural.
>
> Unlike you, I apparently have no 'punk' in me, and thus have a problem
> accepting "rock concerts" as anything but riotous behavior energized by
> electronically distorted noise that rarely, if ever, takes on the
> aspects of
> music (at least as that term may be applied to an art form).
> "Counter-cultural" is too nice: I would call 'punk' and its expression
> anti-cultural, animalistic, primitive. If these exhibitionists insist
> on
> being millionaire pop idols at the sacrifice of our cultural heritage,
> how
> do they serve as a model for our youth? To what pit of debauchery do
> they
> conspire to lead us? Forget about what "music is supposed to be" --
> what
> VALUES are they advocating beyond uninhibited sex, social upheaval, and
> revolt against authority? Is there any semblance of personal
> responsibility, rationality, or harmony in their call to violence?
>
>> You may, of course, support being a good sheep and embracing social
>> norms,
> whatever
>> they may be, without any critical lens to the structuring nature of
>> social
>> "normalcy". And, if that is they embodiment of anti-nihilism, then
>> perhaps
>> that is your choice. But do not confuse rebellion against norms with
> nihilism.
>
> Social norms, as you call them, are the refinements of human culture
> that
> have enabled man to become a civilized creature, in large measure by
> enhancing his sensibility and intellectual appreciation of the values
> of
> life. Is this not the message of Dynamic Quality to which you MoQers
> aspire? The rap 'artist' is an offense to civilization; he wants to
> tear
> it all down and start afresh with a new world order based on a
> let-it-all-hang-out, free-love, anti-intellectual mentality. You may
> see
> this as harmless "self-expression"; but the philosophy that it
> espouses is a
> threat to society. Civilization does not advance by eschewing cultural
> values and individual responsibility. Indeed, it's precisely the loss
> of
> these values that has led our younger generation into lives of crime,
> addiction, unwanted pregnancies and intellectual dysfunction. If you
> would
> apply your "critical lens" to this rebellion against norms, I think you
> would see that it is both irrational and nihilistic.
>
>> I think a much better "example" of nihilism and music would be John
>> Cage.
>> There is your "chaotic song patterns". The Sex Pistols, The Ramones,
>> The
>> Clash... all of these bands use song patterns. To suggest otherwise is
>> simply foolish. As to "morbid and obscene lyrics", I can only believe
>> that
>> you've never really listened to many of the bands you call "punk".
>
> John Cage was novelistic in his approach to classical music, as were
> the
> electronic composers and the minimalists -- even the atonalists, for
> that
> matter. But they all worked within a structural framework -- even if
> it was
> of their own devising -- and none of them (insofar as I know) were
> attempting to destroy the cultural heritage that preceded them.
>
> (You're right; I've never found the punk bands worth listening to.)
>
>> To sum, to rebel against social injustice or normative activity is
>> hardly
>> nihilistic.
>
> How is the musician qualified to challenge social norms; does he know
> something about "social justice" in his drug-induced stupor that the
> average
> taxpaying citizen doesn't?
>
> This is more than just an aside, Arlo. I totally disagree with your
> conclusion. Undermining the values on which a culture is founded, and
> offering nothing but social revolution to replace them, is nihilism in
> its
> most blatant form.
>
> Ham
>
>
>
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