From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 2005 - 03:30:50 GMT
Ham, Arlo,
Taste in music is one thing - aesthetic / aural / intellectual / whatever.
Each to his own etc.
Platt's point I was trying to address - was the physical, rock, the
beat, the body - the bilogical aspect being perhaps what Platt saw as
"degenerate".
For me (and many others no doubt) enjoyment of music, from Wagner or
Kodaly to the Sex Pistols or Queens of the Stone Age has a physical
(and attitudinal) aspect, not excluding any other aesthetic qualities.
Biological perhaps, but barely linked to sex as far as I am concerned.
Ian
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:24:41 -0500, Arlo Bensinger <ajb102@psu.edu> wrote:
> Hi Ham,
>
>
> > > Honestly, though, why do you rage against "rock" but
> > > then purport to enjoy Morissette? I don't understand.
> >
> >Simple answer. I enjoy the MUSIC!
>
> Okay. Good answer.
>
>
> >MUSIC -- a creative art form involving a succession of tones in succession
> >or in combination, produced by instruments or the human voice, whose
> >composition in performance has the unity and continuity to please the
> >sensibilities; i.e., "poetry for the ear". [My definition.]
>
> Okay. Good definition. And good use of "My" at the end. Because of that, I
> have no problems with this.
>
>
> >Based on my 70 years of music listening and study, Alanis has the creative
> >originality, musicianship, and vocal expression of a fine artist in her
> >particular musical genre. The fact that her lyrics are anecdotal to her
> >personal life and include some four-letter words is incidental to my
> >appreciation of her musical talent.
>
> Still nothing to disagree with. Like the continued use of "my", by the way.
>
>
> >There is a discipline or "science" to music, of course, which encompasses
> >the exposition and development of a theme in accordance with established
> >acoustic principles, rhythms, counterpoint, harmonies and instrumental/vocal
> >styles of the art to which we each respond subjectively.
>
> Okay.
>
>
> >What I'm saying is that if our sensibilities are not developed sufficiently
> >to respond emotionally to music as defined above, we lack the ability to
> >appreciate it for what it is.
>
> Are you taking exception, then, to Pirsig's statement: What is good and
> what is not good, need we ask anyone these things? Is your position, then,
> that one must "learn" how to recognize the good (in music).
>
> Since you find The Clash nihilistic, would you say that is because you have
> more learned sensibilities than I?
>
> > Sending a sexually provocative message to
> >fans by drum-beating, yelling, amplified dissonance, lyrical obscenities, or
> >stage gyrations may be considered a "communicative artform" by some; but it
> >is not the art of music.
>
> Says Ham. Are those who consider it to be so simply less informed than
> yourself?
>
> But, if I can restate (to make sure I understand), music that is "sexually
> provocative" due to drum-beating, yelling, amplified dissonance, lyrical
> obscenities and stage gyrations is "degenerate" or "nihilistic".
>
> Who determines whether it is "sexually provocative"? The individual or a
> group of specialists? Is it only "sexually provocative" music you have an
> issue with?
>
>
> > > Platt is bringing this back to the MOQ saying "rock is biological", and
> >should
> > > be condemned as such.
> >
> >Frank Sinatra was "biological", I am "biological", music is not
> >"biological". I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
>
> You'd have to ask Platt. What I gather he is saying is that "rock promotes
> biological quality". What he doesn't state is (1) why Bluegrass, Jazz,
> Swing, Polka, Salsa, Country-Western or Reggae also aren't lambasted for
> "promoting biological quality", and (2) why "biological quality" (even if
> this were true) should be universally condemned.
>
> I have heard songs that I find to be very sexual (read, "biological quality
> promoting") that are rock, salsa, jazz, classical, country,... and while I
> certainly admit that it's my own conceptual framework that "imbues" these
> songs with "sexual meaning", I do not find them worth condemning for this.
>
>
> >Ian says:
> > > I went to see Joe Satriani last night. (Greatest living rock
> > > guitarist, anybody ?)
> >
> >Ian, I don't particularly care for guitar music, even classical guitar.
> >Maybe Santoya. But you must be the judge of whether Joe Satriani (with whom
> >I'm unfamiliar) or any other rock instrumentalist is a "musician" by the
> >standards I've cited. Each to his own tastes. You've asked for my answer.
> >I can only speak for myself.
>
> Were that all, I'd have no problem with anything you say. Instead you and
> Platt have made claims that "rock" should be universally condemned as
> either "nihilistic" or "degenerate". You have indicated that it is an
> underlying cause of "moral decay" in this nation. You obviously feel you
> have superior, or more refined, or more sensible musical tastes than anyone
> who "likes", say, The Clash, a "punk rock band".
>
> These charges are what I am after. I don't care what your personal tastes
> are, and I am not saying you "should" like The Clash or any other music or
> song. But you are taking it beyond "personal tastes" and making it
> intrinsically degenerate to like music that you personally find distasteful.
>
> Even above, while giving Ian the personal charge to determine whether or
> not a particular song has Quality, you make it sure that it's "by the
> standards I've cited". What's wrong with Ian's standards? Or mine?
>
> Either you are very egotistical about your musical sensibilities, or you
> feel the world would be better off (less degenerate or nihilistic) if
> everyone liked just what you like.
>
> Arlo
>
>
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