From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Mon Apr 18 2005 - 10:16:07 BST
Thanks Scott - I appreciate what a meme is and I did mention Sue
Blackmore, who has done most to develop Dennett's idea that memes are
"off the leash" as far as any dependency on biological / genetic
evolution is concerned. (Dawkins bless him was always more cautious.)
(Something I blogged about at some length recently - though not
advertised on here because I know there are many sceptics of both
memes and Darwin lurking on this forum)
Anyway, Whilst I buy 99% of Blackmore's story, and am busy filling the
gaps with Dennett at the moment, I doubt memes are entirely
independent of minds, even if they have a huge element of autonomy.
Any one meme cannot be controlled by one mind after it is
communicated, but memes are influenced by minds, as indeed are genes.
In fact that's Deutsch's thesis - life (genetic, memetic or any other
kind) is a fundamental force influencing the universe(s) - consistent
with MoQ Levels IMHO.
I think the two points I made - about origination of a meme, and
subsequent experience of a meme - still stand as answers to your
question.
The intriguing point for me, is the circularity in the Dennett /
Blackmore argument that mind is all memes anyway. I believe you may
have a point that Pirsig's pre-and post-intellectual distinction of
experience is significant - probably why I've linked Memes and MoQ in
my mind already.
Might be nice to develop your question further - this is a hot topic for me.
Ian
On 4/18/05, AlienWorkshop <nopocus22@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Memes are contagious ideas, all competing for a share of our mind in a kind
> of Darwinian selection. MeMe's range from ancient weapons of war to modern
> cars to pharmaceuticals.
> What I was getting at Ian, is that some postulate that MeMe's have their own
> type of autonomy. IF that were so, how could there be a gunuine a-priori
> thought that was
> independent of the thinker? Where does the empirical evidence come in? And,
> could Quality be a sort of ingredient with autonomous MeMe's?; as some
> MeMe's would naturally
> contain more of a Quality and aesthetic essence to them than others. Just a
> MeMe.(just a thought!)
>
> Scott
>
> ian glendinning <psybertron@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
> Meme's (and Susan Blackmore) are a particular interest of mine, but
> I'm not sure I understand your question.
>
> A meme that doesn't yet exist, needs some intelligence to invent it
> the first time, and presumably expresses it in communicable form after
> intellectualising some other prior experience.
>
> Once it (the potential new meme) exists as informtaion in a physical
> form, it is open to being experienced before or after further
> intellectualisation, No ?
>
> Ian
>
> On 4/18/05, AlienWorkshop wrote:
> > Hello...
> > my name is Scott, and Ive been reading these posts for about 3
> > months now.
> > Ive hopefully got something apropos for the group in the way of "me-me's."
> > I was hoping that someone could juxtapose meme's with Romantic and
> Classical
> > Quality
> > as it were. For ho! w could a meme ( an idea thats its own entity ) exist
> > before the "reality?"
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > p.s. "Reality is always the moment of vision before the intellecualization
> > takes place."
> >
> > ZMM ( pgs. 350-251 )
> >
> >
> >
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