From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Tue May 17 2005 - 03:33:35 BST
On 16 May 2005 at 12:59, B. Skutvik wrote:
Hi Mark
I had left the discussion before you entered, but the MOQ is as
much a part of my outlook now as then. However, I found the
discussion an addiction and had to quit before it left me a junkie.
DMB and Matt are surely hooked ;-)
msh:
I know what you mean. I find myself participating furiously for a
month or two or three, then I need to take a month or two off, it
seems.
bo:
However I look into the archives and have found your inputs most
sober, just wanted to comment on (some lines of ) this passage
msh:
Well, I hope by "sober" you mean well thought-out and worthy of your
reflection. That's what I'll tell myself, anyway. : -)
bo quotes msh:
My personal and pragmatic interpretation of the MOQ relies on a pair
of what I claim to be two empirically verifiable statements:
"Evolution occurs" and "Some things serve evolution better than
others." From these, I can derive the moral hierarchy, and that's
all I need.
As I've said many times, I DON'T think that Quality is
literally the source of subjects and objects, and don't even
understand what that would mean.
bo comments:
Subjects AND objects I don't know what are in themselves (that's the
very point) but the subject/object distinction - and the whole host
of S/Os - are very much a static Quality "creation" in the same sense
that inorganic, biological and social values are. It is the static
intellectual level in my opinion.
msh says:
This I can understand. In this sense, the "creation" occurs for
practical reasons, just as we create (read codify) the "laws" of
nature. So SOM makes the distinction for practical purposes. The
MOQ adds Quality to the mix, and makes Quality primary FOR PRACTICAL
REASONS. This is what I mean when I say Pirsig assumes that Quality
creates subjects and objects in order to get his metaphysics off the
ground.
bo:
However, Phaedrus' arriving at that conclusion was no leap of faith
as Matt makes it sound as, but rather a leap of reason after pursuing
SOM and finding it a dead end. At first he faced the object- ive horn
(ZMM Ch.19) that he called 'the mean one' (something that was true in
the late sixties before the many "hoax of physics" books). He then
faced the subjective horn which IMO is the real menace, but refused
that too.
msh says:
To me it's obvious that there is a difference between a leap of faith
and a leap of reason. Some contributors do not see this, however,
and insist that a leap of reason is simply a leap of faith made by
people who have "faith" in rationality and evidence as a way of
understanding our world. That's why I prefer to explain the leap in
terms of making pragmatic assumptions.
bo:
Here I must enlarge. His refutation of the subject(ive) part of SOM
looks superficial compared to the time he spends on the objective and
may be the reason for the MOQ being perceived as another (subjective)
project, but if SOM is to be replaced by the MOQ the latter is as
important and my complaint is that Pirsig did not sufficiently pursue
the futility of the subjective alternative. What's worse, in some
Lila's Child annotations it looks as if he endorses idealism. This is
impossible: The MOQ refutes SOM and neither its O nor its S have any
bearing on the MOQ.
msh says:
I tend to agree, In ZMM, I think he used his analytical knife to
arrive at a real problem in dissecting the Subjective horn of the
dilemma. In attempting to explain why people know what quality is,
yet often disagree about the things in which quality resides, he
arrives at what seems to me a decent solution: some people respond to
quality romantically (immediate emotional), while others respond to
it classically (analytically), seeing below the surface of romantic
appeal. He wrote:
"Now there was an alternative explanation: people disagreed about
Quality because some just used their immediate emotions whereas
others applied their overall knowledge." ZMM, Chapter 19.
But he rejects this because, well, because he doesn't like it. It
complicates his simple, neat, beautiful and undefined Quality. To
save it, he then claims that Quality is neither romantic nor classic,
and thus goes between the horns to arrive at a metaphysical trinity,
which is where he should have left it, IMHO:
"And finally: Phædrus, following a path that to his knowledge had
never been taken before in the history of Western thought, went
straight between the horns of the subjectivity-objectivity dilemma
and said Quality is neither a part of mind, nor is it a part of
matter. It is a third entity which is independent of the two. "
IBID
bo:
OK, I just wanted to say this, maybe I should have subscribed to
deliver it but as said. There will soon appear an essay about my SOL
interpretation (SOM as the intellectual level) at the forum page of
moq.org.
msh:
I look forward to reading it. Thanks again for your time.
Regards,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
-- InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983 Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com He was heard along the corridors and up and down the stairs of Montana Hall singing softly to himself, almost under his breath, "Holy, holy, holy -- blessed Trinity." ZMM, Chapter 19 MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archives: Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
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