From: Allen Barrows (allen_barrows@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri Jun 10 2005 - 20:33:51 BST
Hello Bo i have had to change computers because the old one was not working well.
1
Hello Bo,
We are off to a good begining and it is an interesting thinking.
It looks like we agree up to this point at which i shall take over.
And as intellect (in ZMM) is the "prism" that splits Quality (pre-
intellectual awareness) into subjects and objects ... the
intellectual level of the later MOQ ought to have become the
(value of) the S/O divide.
I understand what you say here Bo. I like the prism metaphor it is very appealing indeed. Quality is one and it is split into subjects and objects as it passes through the prism. One goes in and som comes out. I think this works only if the prism and som are the same thing or if you say value is the prism then som is the product of a preintellectual value/prism. It looks like you are saying prism for value if i have you right.
> In the MOQ, experience is
> categorised by intellect (as noted above, primarily into the four
> static levels and a referring term for Dynamic Quality).
But here I part company. "Categorized by intellect" implies that
the MOQ (that does this categorization) is an intellectual pattern
and that is plain impossible.
You have misunderstood something here Bo and this misunderstanding makes you think people are suggesting the impossable.
The MOQ does not categorise at all bo. The MOQ has categories within it but both the categories within the MOQ and the MOQ itself are patterns of intellectual value. I think this is why people reckon the MOQ is idealism, because even when it says there are social and organic and inorganic values all these are suggestions being made by the intellect. People then can not figure out why everything is just intellect. Social organic and inorganic patterns do not call themselves anything the only thing that can represent them and not be them are intellectual patterns. As Anthony McWatts book says
Intellectuality
occurs when these customs as well as biological and inorganic patterns are
designated with a sign that stands for them and these signs are manipulated
independently of the patterns they stand for. ‘Intellect’ can then be defined
very loosely as the level of independently manipulable signs. Grammar, logic
and mathematics can be described as the rules of this sign manipulation.
As you can see symbols can simply float away from what they point to. Some might say this is a difference between objective appearence and subjective thought but it does not have to be at all it seems to me because grammer can manipulate symbols independantly of whether any objects or subjects are percieved. I reckon i may be able to put this across if i invent a story.
Imagine you are in a helicopter hovering above a city at night and there are quiet roads with millions of traffic lights at various junctions. ok? The traffic lights still operate but there are few cars around the lights just do what they do. Imagine this situation is the social level of patterns of behaviour. ok? Now imagine that every traffic light has an identicle twin standing almost in the same place as the original one and every light has this twin. Although the original lights behave as social learned behaviour the twin lights now begin to talk to each other by winking on and off at a very high speed and in a way that pays no matter to traffic flow. ok? This represents the intellect Bo in my scheme of things so to speak.
The social traffic lights value self and other and this is celebrity status so the self and other relationship is very much a part of their evolution. The intellectual lights the same as the social lights, but they use the same lights to do a totally different thing. They can imitate social behaviour and wink self and other type patterns, or they can wink a massive number of new relationships also that the social can not because the social lights are tied to making traffic flow correct in the city.
This is emergent behaviour and not a prism Bo it seems to me: Intellectuality occurs when these customs... (lights) ...patterns are designated with a sign that stands for them and these signs are manipulated independently of the patterns they stand for.
Your system tells us that the helicopter is more som but what i want to stress is two things. First of all the helicopter is really within the ghost signs as self awareness and second the ghost lights are not in an almost identicle position to the origionals they are actually a mode of behaviour of the origionals. I have worked you into this idea slowly to get it across but it is still a simili.
---------------------------------
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Jun 10 2005 - 20:38:39 BST