From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Jun 14 2005 - 20:47:19 BST
Paul,
> Paul: Unless you seriously think that one person sat down and worked out
> an entire language from scratch, this argument amounts to little more than
> pointing out that groups, societies, libraries, schools etc. are made up of
> individuals, which, of course, I agree with.
Unless you seriously think humans suddenly started talking to one another
while sitting around the cave, your argument that language began as a
group effort amounts to little more than it takes two to tango, which of
course, I agree with.
Platt (previously)
> --- To create the MOQ, Pirsig the individual, rose above static SOM
> --- intellect.
> ---
> --- No one else, least of all a public institution or a collective
> --- consciousness, can lay claim to the authorship of ZMM and Lila.
> Paul: Oh Platt, not you as well...you and Ham with your bleeding
> "collective consciousness." What on earth is a collective consciousness?!
That which you seem to believe created language, and most every other
human artifact.
> Now, because of the more noticeable
> change occurring due to the speed of evolution, I think it is clearly
> easier to associate such a change with individuals, but I question the idea
> that an individual has *caused* the evolution of knowledge in any deeper
> sense than an individual *caused* the evolution of the brain, or the
> English language. I think it is overly simplistic and dismissive of an
> overall historical process of evolution to think that way.
I do not claim an individual caused the evolution of knowledge any more
than a raindrop causes a flood. Abstractions like "evolution,"
"knowledge," and "historical process" are disassociated from any specific
instance. They exist solely as convenient concepts to cover a broad range
of particular instances.
> Finally, as mentioned earlier, the copies of patterns that each individual
> is composed of are not identical. This may be of the most significance to
> you, I'm not sure.
Be assured, "not identical" is of the most significance to me. And to my
wife, I might add. Or so she tells me. :-)
> What I am highlighting is that it is, to some degree, always a combination
> of factors which brings about evolution, even when we "pinpoint" an
> individual. For example, Pirsig wasn't born with the MOQ. Before he
> arrived at the theory, as an infant he learned which things to notice, he
> learned the English language, he gained an education, trained as a
> biochemist, studied Indian philosophy, experienced Native American
> mysticism with Dusenberry, taught freshman composition etc. All of these
> things, along with Dynamic Quality, shaped the MOQ. You can take any one
> of these things and trace its evolution back to a time when the individual
> called Robert Pirsig didn't exist, before the social pattern of the US
> existed, before the English language existed - all the way back. In this
> long, long view of things, I think you can see how it makes sense to view
> patterns as, in an important sense, independent of *particular*
> individuals.
I think it's important to think abstractly so we don't have to stop every
two seconds to cite specifics. Abstract thinking freed us from the here
and now prison endured by animals. But, it's equally important when it
comes to human beings to regard each one as a unique individual who has
the capacity to respond to DQ. I need not remind you that Pirsig made that
very point in discussing capital punishment.
It is precisely the view that an abstract public good is more important
and more real than any individual citizen that has brought so much misery
to so many in our lifetime. That's what really bothers me about the
"collectivist" view of life. But, as said and I think we agree --it's a
matter of emphasis. Unique dynamic individuals and a stable social,
historical structure -- both are needed.
Best,
Platt
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