From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Tue Jun 21 2005 - 16:10:26 BST
Bo,
--- On 17 June you wrote to me who had said:
---
--- > > Agree, but this original insight is obscured by Paul and DMB
--- > > who --- maintains that the thought pattern called "common >
--- > > sense" comes --- first.
---
--- Paul:
--- > If you are going to insist on having these little digs, can you
--- > at least refer to something that I have actually written?
---
--- My referring to "common sense" relates to the "What comes first"
--- thread in August 03 and here's one post from you to DMB.
Paul: Yes but your response was to Platt who had said:
> So as I [was] thinking about all this thinking about thinking, I suddenly
> had a thought. The MOQ, a pillar of thinking if there ever was one, is
> not about thinking. It's about what occurs before thought, namely,
> valuing.
To which you replied:
Agree, but this original insight is obscured by Paul and DMB who maintains
that the thought pattern called "common sense" comes first.
Paul: This implies that I had said that "the thought pattern called 'common
sense'" precedes value, which I didn't. So the "original insight" is not
obscured at all. Common sense is common sense precisely *because* it is
valuable, which is what Pirsig is saying in that infamous quote.
Regarding "what comes first" I won't go through that entire loop again as
I've recently discussed it with Ham. What I will add is that it is useful
to consider two aspects of the MOQ.
One aspect is the description it provides of how beliefs are produced,
maintained and changed. This is the MOQ that is primarily presented in ZMM
but also in parts of LILA e.g. the 'newborn baby' passage.
The other aspect, presented in LILA, is the set of beliefs, the description,
that comprise the MOQ and what the world looks like under that description
(see quote below). Those beliefs are the ones which Pirsig thinks are the
most valuable to hold and this includes the central belief in evolution
which orders the levels accordingly.
To think that Pirsig is saying that these beliefs are more than what are the
most valuable to have is to think that he is saying, like 'the Chairman',
that they are "The Truth," the Reality behind the Appearances (of e.g. SOM).
This demonstrates that one is still in thrall to the appearance/reality
distinction - the common denominator to all SOM patterns - which,
ironically, by your own definition, means that your argument is more
entrenched in intellect than any.
Regards
Paul
"Within LILA there are two huge divisions which are not very apparent to the
reader. The first part of the book, up to about Chapter 13, is what would be
called high-level exposition in which we start with the basic ideas, the
basic philosophy of the MOQ. In the second part of the book we get to
low-level exposition in which concrete examples appear of how the world is
when these high level principles are applied." [Pirsig, 1993, AHP Lecture]
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