MD The intellectual mess cleared up.

From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Tue Jul 05 2005 - 17:05:57 BST

  • Next message: Arlo Bensinger: "Re: MD MOQ and The Moral Society"

    Matt, Paul and all Moqians.

    After umpteen exchanges with you two over the SOL I have a
    sense of having arrived. Matt have been talking about the MOQ
    for several weeks and have also demonstrated that he
    understands what I have been driving at for nearly a decade.
    Fantastic!

    Anyway, what we have arrived at (at least regarding Paul,
    hopefully Matt will participate too) is the following logical
    arrangement:

    1)
    The Greek cultural upheaval marks the emergence of what - in
    MOQ - is called the intellectual level.

    2)
    This upheaval is in ZMM described as the emergence of the
    Subject/Object Metaphysics (SOM).

    3)
    Thus when we speak about MOQ's intellectual level we speak
    about SOM.

    4)
    The MOQ rejects the SOM which means both its subjective and
    objective aspect.

    (A 5th point may be that after the COMPLETE rejection, the
    MOQ no longer is part of its own intellectual level, but it follows
    more or less naturally)

    At least one of these points must be faulty to break my logic
    which concludes that the incomplete rejection of the SOM
    (leaving its subjective half unscathed) is behind the resistance to
    seeing that the SOL is the MOQ.

                                ******************

    If Paul responds he will possibly zoom in on # 1 and repeat that
    the (western) intellectual level starting with the Greeks doesn't
    provide a definition of it, but in the letter to Paul ....

    Pirsig says:
    > Just when the evolution of the intellectual level from the social level
    > took place in history can only be speculated on (.....). But if one
    > studies the early books of the Bible or if one studies the sayings of
    > primitive tribes today, the intellectual level is conspicuously absent.
    > The world is ruled by Gods who follow social and biological patterns and
    > nothing else.

    See he doesn't speak of any western intellect ... or western
    society for that matter. The absence of intellectual value in the
    early books of the Bible is matched by the same in early Greek
    literature ("The Iliad" for example), thus the intellectual level
    emerged as described in ZMM.

    In the same letter Pirsig also says:
    > From a philosophic idealist viewpoint there is nothing but intellect.
    > From a Zen viewpoint it is a part of the world of everyday affairs that
    > one leaves behind upon becoming enlightened and then rediscovers from a
    > Buddha's point of view

    This is what I have been saying: To you (Matt and Paul) there is
    nothing but intellect. Everything - including the MOQ itself - are
    intellectual ideas. But from a MOQ (Zen) viewpoint intellect is
    part of the static development (the world of everyday affairs) that
    one leaves behind upon understanding the MOQ (becoming
    enlightened) and then looks back upon in a SOL light
    (rediscovers from a Buddha's point of view).

                            ****************

    There has been an anti-objectivism trend in the West for a long
    time and people believe they are "Zen" when joining that
    movement, but when a philosophy appears that is just as anti-
    subjectivist it is met with perplexity ...or with efforts to transform it
    into another new-ageism variety. This is why Matt had such easy
    play with DMB and Anthony, but became baffled when confronted
    with my real MOQ.

    Its rejection of both objectivism AND subjectivism is the shocking
    part of the MOQ and what I believe the out-of-hospital Pirsig
    didn't dare pursue. In ZMM he avoided it by creating a narrator
    who merely tells about Phaedrus; how inconsiderate and reckless
    he was. Next - in LILA and the MOQ - by ignoring the original
    insight that intellect is the S/O generator.

    The explanation may be that Pirsig's own obsession was with the
    Quality=Reality issue (funnily that part is completely ignored) and
    it overshadowed everything else, but ZMM succeeded in that
    respect, and also in proving that Phaedrus was a most sane
    person with ideas that caught the attention of millions all over the
    world, therefore Pirsig could have started on the MOQ from that
    axiom on ...and with the original insight about intellect..

    Enough!
    Bo

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