From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu Jul 21 2005 - 03:07:22 BST
Hi all,
Again skipping some responses for obvious reasons. The record speaks
for itself.
> platt 7-19-05:
> Nowhere do I find in the MOQ a statement to the effect that "ideas
> such as those found in the US Constitution" are of higher value than
> society. He says ideas "take moral precedence over society" in the
> context of capital punishment. In his discussion of socialism he says
> an intellectually guided society is a higher form of evolution, but
> goes on to point out the defect in current intellect. He also alludes
> to the Bill of Rights but has nothing to say about constitutional
> amendments.So your premise is suspect.
>
> msh 7-19-05:
> No, not just in the context of capital punishment, or socialism.
> Here's the text I in support of this premise:
>
> It [the MOQ] says that what is meant by "human rights" is usually the moral
> code of intellect-vs.-society, the moral right of intellect to be free of
> social control. Freedom of speech; freedom of assembly, of travel; trial
> by jury; habeas corpus; government by consent--these "human rights" are all
> intellectual-vs.-society issues. According to the Metaphysics of Quality
> the "human rights" have not just a sentimental basis, but a rational,
> metaphysical basis. They are essential to the evolution of a higher level
> of life from a lower level of life. They are for real. (LILA Bantam 1st
> Ed, Chap 24, pg 307)
platt 7-20-05:
Distortion of the quote by omission. The third sentence should read
"According to THESE "human rights . . ." referring specifically to the
rights named. Furthermore, to jump from this to the claim that the MOQ
says that all "ideas such as found in the U.S. Constitution" are of higher
value than society according to the MOQ is a gross distortion.
msh 7-20-05:
An obvious typo which I doubt anyone but Platt would consider a
distortion. I get no sense that Pirsig is limiting human rights to
just the few he mentions by way of example. He doesn't mention the
right to life; does anyone here believe he would exclude this from
his understanding of human rights?
Besides, Platt has excised my comment that he himself has already
conceded this point. I'll give him another chance to respond.
Here's what I said...
msh 7-19-05:
Besides, you yourself have already conceded the gist of this premise, in
many places. Here's the most recent:
On 1 Jul 2005 at 16:59, Platt Holden wrote:
Freedom to me means the rights outlined in the Bill of Rights of the
U.S. Constitution, cited by Pirsig as intellect vs.society issues,
i.e., the individual vs. government.
> platt 7-19-05:
> Due process doesn't prevent the government from depriving someone of
> life. It charges government with protecting his legal rights before
> doing so.
>
> msh 7-19-05:
> That's the point. His life to right is not being protected; he's
> being deprived of life without due process of law.
platt 7-20-05:
Distortion beyond belief. Pure Orwellian -- "life to right" ????
msh 7-20-05:
Another obvious typo which probably "confused" no one but Platt. Of
course I was speaking of the right to life, as expressed in the
Declaration of Independence, the ideals of which were codified in the
US Constitution.
msh 7-19-05:
> The Viagra comment is just more distortion, as I've consistently
> referred to life-saving treatment.
platt 7-20-05:
That's just the problem, don't you see? Some government bureaucrat is
bound to decide that erectile dysfunction is life threatening.
msh 7-20-05:
We're discussing a single issue, not what someone might want to do
later. This is just another way of avoiding an honest look at a
single, simple idea.
platt 7-20-05:
In fact, under the Medicaid program in at least one state (NY I
believe) Viagra was approved for one poor sucker to pay under threat
of fine or jail for his neighbor's inability to get it up. Ah, the
brave new world of msh!
msh 7-20-05:
As everyone will see, this comment is a personal attack on me and,
more important, is irrelevant to my argument.
Thanks to all,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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