From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jul 23 2005 - 15:27:32 BST
Hi Paul,
> Paul: I think *intellectual consciousness* is cultural i.e. I think
> abstract symbol manipulation is a learned skill. This is what I refer to
> as mind. I think consciousness as a synonym for experience is primary but
> I wouldn't say "consciousness or mind" as if they are necessarily the same
> thing like you do. Mind can mean almost anything, particularly in
> philosophy, so it isn't a good word unless you define it clearly and not
> just assume that everyone uses it in the same way. I also struggle with
> what is consistently meant by consciousness.
You illustrate that, especially in this discussion, definitions are
crucial.
> Paul: New intellectual patterns are created by the response of the
> existing static patterns of an individual human being to DQ. That is how
> cultures advance intellectually.
In a nutshell, this is my entire argument for the importance in the MOQ of
the individual.
> On that note, I can't understand why Platt, who has read Pirsig closely,
> plays the same game. Platt, you recently said:
>
> "I think "collective consciousness" is a meaningless abstraction because
> human inhabitants of this world have never been of "one mind""
>
> And
>
> "But to say that my unique experiences and intellectual patterns combined
> with yours and that terrorist over there by the camel somehow comprise a
> "collective consciousness" stretches credulity."
> Now you may be talking about my and other people's interpretation of Pirsig
> here and, if so, I personally find it tiresome having to constantly fight
> against a caricature of my position. I've written lengthy replies to you,
> Platt, about where I see the individual in terms of the MOQ and evolution
> and you still come out with statements like this. Either you have a short
> memory or you are being deliberately antagonistic, which is a shame because
> we've had some good discussions in the past.
Must be a short memory. I confess to not having total recall, so please
excuse my shortcoming if I don't recall you and I having a discussion on
the meaning of "collective consciousness." I assure you I meant no
offense.
If to you "collective consciousness" simply means "common knowledge" such
as the word "cat" means to all English speaking people a small furry
feline who purrs when content and likes Fancy Feast cat food, I agree. But
to me "collective consciousness" refers to the idea that everyone's
individual responses to DQ together make up some sort disembodied "giant"
like that of the social level. To that notion I disagree.
Hope this clarifies.
Best,
Platt
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