Re: MD MOQ: Involved or on the Sideline?

From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu Aug 04 2005 - 00:57:36 BST

  • Next message: Mati Palm-Leis: "MD MOQ and Education Part 2"

    Hi Paul, Scott, David H, and all,

    On 2 Aug 2005 at 20:36, David Harding wrote:

    Paul Turner wrote:
    > Scott, MSH,
    >
    >
    >>Scott:
    >>If we actually did do nothing, things would not stay just the way they are.
    >>That is the message of the Tao Te Ching. The road to hell is paved with
    >>good
    >>intentions, etc.
    >
    >
    >>Scott:
    >>The problem is that you do not seem to realize that you are part of the
    >>problem. As am I, and as are we all. But -- or so I flatter myself in so
    >>thinking -- to recognize that one is part of the problem is the first step
    >>in ceasing to be so.
    >>
    >>msh 08-01-05:
    >>Ok. Then what's the second step?
    >>
    >>See, this is the kind of one-hand-clapping nonsense that leads to the
    >>religion of do nothing and things will get better. I guess it works
    >>great if you're in the boot with the iron heel, or if the heel comes
    >>down in someone else's neighborhood. Now, imagine yourself beneath
    >>the heel, then lecture us about what we should do.
    >
    >
    > Paul: As I understand it, Mark, Scott has misinterpreted the term - wu wei
    > - or at least, hasn't elaborated on what he means by do-nothing. The Taoist
    > wu wei principle refers to behaviour motivated by a sense of oneself as
    > connected to everything else i.e. not motivated by a sense of fundamental
    > separateness or by the selfish ego. It is operating with a sense of dharma,
    > which, of course, is what Pirsig identifies with Quality in ZMM. When one
    > is working with Quality instead of against it, activity can seem effortless,
    > which is what wu-wei is perhaps better translated as meaning. It is nothing
    > to do with apathy or mere passivity.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Paul
    >

    msh 8-03-05:
    I guess what I'm trying to find out is in what way you (Paul and
    Scott, and I guess David agrees) see Arlo and I acting without a
    sense of Quality? Is there something specific you can point to,
    which allows you to say that what we're doing, or saying, violates
    the Taoist wu wei principle? That is, how have you arrived at the
    conclusion that we are not "motivated by a sense of oneself as
    connected to everything else," i.e. that we are "motivated by a
    sense of fundamental separateness or by the selfish ego."

    Thanks for your help.

    Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
    --
    InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
    Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
    Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Aug 04 2005 - 01:12:46 BST