Re: MD Violent or non-violent

From: Joseph Maurer (
Date: Sat Aug 06 2005 - 21:02:57 BST

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    On Wednesday 03 August 2005 2:59 PM Arlo responds to Joe:

    > Joe,
    > You wrote:
    >> It is hard to know from what point of view consciousness-evolving, or
    >> mechanical-life a person is writing. MOQ is not life-mechanical
    >> experience.
    > Attempts to rule life by the MOQ is violent. What is evolving is lawfully
    > unknown.
    > Arlo:
    > I hear Bourdieu's idea of "symbolic violence" echoing in your thoughts.
    > Simply
    > stated, the internalization of ANY cultural habitus (I'd argue that
    > Bourdieu's
    > habitus and Pirsig's static social patterns are philosophically
    > synonymous) is
    > a form of "(symbolic) violence" against the undifferentiated, aesthetic of
    > experience (DQ, in Pirsig's terminology).
    > The point, however, in both is that this "violence" is necessary, and is
    > what
    > sustains the social layer. That is, with the cultural "indoctrination" of
    > being
    > immersed in any given culture, individuals can participate and evolve
    > social
    > (and subsequently intellectual) quality patterns. Without this "violence",
    > this
    > is not possible.
    Hi Arlo and all,

    IMO There is mechanical evolution, which is violent. There is a conscious
    evolution which is non-violent, mystical. According to the MOQ the evolution
    to a level of society, is mechanical evolution, a created level in DQ, a
    step from the organic individual into a level of society. The evolution to
    an intellectual level, is mechanical evolution, e.g. SOL, a created level in
    DQ, a step from the social level into an intellectual level. There is
    mystical evidence for the evolution of consciousness in an existing
    sentient, e.g. professional sports, music, visions etc. DQ is mystical
    experience. There is no violent way for a sentient to intentionally
    apprehend DQ. Violence is mechanical. Consciousness is not mechanical, not
    based on violence. The mystical is yes and no.

    Hypnotism is an answer that explains the mechanicalness of life. All
    non-conscious life is violent. Can an individual evolve? According to the
    MOQ the acceptance of DQ in evolution is mystical. Is society always on a
    higher level than an individual sentient? All men are created equal! Society
    can mechanically destroy an evolving consciousness. An individual evolving
    in DQ is not violent to society. Nuclear weapons and tsunamis muddy a clear
    cut division. 250,000 dead in Hiroshima, 177,000 dead from the tsunami. I
    won't say that society is always on a higher level than an evolving
    individual sentient.

    > We are ALREADY succombed to the violence you fear. It already exists.
    > Using the
    > MOQ as a guide in thinking about practical solutions to moral problems is
    > no
    > more violence than that what has created the patterns that exist now. We
    > NEED
    > static social patterns. Pure DQ is chaos. The creation of static social
    > patterns is ALWAYS (symbolically) violent in its limitation of Pure
    > Quality.

    I agree evolution has occured. A lack of third force creates chaos, nothing
    to hold yes and no to a particular structure. I do not see DQ as Yes and
    No, I see DQ as a manifestation of three forces.

    > JC had said this more eloquently and to the point that I have (or could).
    > So
    > I'll just quote his words. They deserve a repost in my opinion anyway.
    > "If we start fresh on any question and leave behind our static
    > prejudices about the way things are supposed to be, we can find fresh
    > answers, better solutions, quality decisions. That is my plea for
    > bringing the metaphysics of quality down to earth. Any problem has a
    > best solution. We don't always get it. Sometimes the best we can do
    > is approximate and hope. But to my mind, the best of what Pirsig has
    > to offer the modern world is a way at finding pragmatic solutions.
    > It's not that the MoQ Society has all the right answers, it's that
    > there are ways of opening ourselves to discovering answers if we can
    > free ourselves from static blockages."
    > Arlo

    Evolution of consciousness would suggest that there is no best solution to a
    problem. The hypnotic mechanicality of life destroys the possibility of
    conscious work.


    PS My wife has been diagnosed with ovarian cancer. I ask for your

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