Re: MD Tat Tvam Asi, Campbell and Theosis

From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Sat Aug 20 2005 - 17:54:05 BST

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    Hi DMB, or Paul,

    > For the accusation that mystical EXPERIENCE is a Modernist SOM fiction, we
    > would have to be talking about a subjective experience. But that's exactly
    > what we ARE NOT talking about....
    >
    > "In a subject-object metaphysics, this experience is between a preexisting
    > object and subject, but in the MOQ, there is no pre-existing subject or
    > object....So in the MOQ experience comes first, everything else comes
    > later. This is pure empiricism, as opposed to scientific empiricism,
    > which, with its pre-existing subjects and objects, is not really so pure."
    > [LILA'S CHILD p548]
    >
    > dmb now adds:
    > Sam, you persist in making the assertion that Pirsig's ideas about
    > mysticism are polluted by Modernity and SOM. And yet the quotes that I
    > provided here AGAIN, the ones you convieniently ignored in your response
    > show that this idea is doesn't even come close to making sense.

    Sam now says:
    I don't understand what the word 'experience' means in Pirsig's sentence 'in
    the MoQ experience comes first', ie, is not 'between a pre-existing object
    and subject'. 'Experience' in western philosophy for the last few hundred
    years has been precisely SOM. Pirsig now asserts that in the MoQ
    'experience' doesn't imply SOM; he has taken a term which had a fairly clear
    sense in previous philosophy, and has given it a new meaning. I just don't
    know how he does that. (Talk of jumping off hot stoves doesn't get us very
    far....)

    What I think he has done is taken James' understandings a step further, but
    as James was precisely using the SOM sense, I don't think that achieves what
    he wants it to achieve.

    Sam

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