Re: MD How do conservative values support DQ and the evolution of SQ?

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Thu Sep 01 2005 - 23:31:23 BST

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    You seem to think that the issue of the individual vs. the collective has
    been settled in favor of a notion that both are morally equal. Not so.
    Intellectual patterns take precedence over social patterns in Pirsig's
    moral hierarchy, and intellect is not something society has. Only
    individuals have intellect -- or intellect has individuals if you prefer.
    If there's a thorn in anybody's side it's in yours because your Marxist
    collectivist views are not supported by the MOQ.


    > [Ham wrote]
    > >At the same time (and at least as important to me) there is a need to
    > >establish the role of the "individual" in the Quality thesis. I'm
    > >constantly troubled by the assertions made here that individuality is of
    > >minor consequence, that conscious awareness arises as a byproduct of
    > >Nature's evolution to higher levels of complexity, that the individual
    > >self is a meaningless abstraction whose choices and will to act are mere
    > >reflections of the "intellectual culture" from which it emerges. This
    > >reminds me of Sartre's thoughtless comment that "man is 'unnecessary'
    > >...the world exists just as well without him."
    > This type of "crisis" appears to only be a "crisis" for someone who can't
    > accept that Randian Individualism has no place in the MOQ. There have been
    > several threads on this topic, including one where I tried to demonstrate
    > that the symbiotic-dialectic between the "individual" and the "collective"
    > does not place precedence of one over the other, but this does not equate
    > to the "devaluation of the individual" decried by the Ayn Rand crowd (see
    > MD: Intellect as Consciousness, and MD Collective Consciousness).
    > That said, the reason (perhaps) that no one is rushing in to solve the
    > "problem of the individual in the MOQ" is that only Randians see a problem
    > here. In other words, its not a crisis, just a thorn in the side of the
    > Stand Alone Genius mythologists. :-)

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