From: platootje@netscape.net
Date: Fri Sep 09 2005 - 08:36:53 BST
Hello Ham,
>First of all, I'm sorry to see that you've fallen for the notion that atoms
>and molecules "experience" each other. (I had hoped to be getting to you
>before your indoctrination by the MoQ.) This is sheer nonsense, and it will
>be a major obstacle to achieving a workable definition of Consciousness.
Please don't see this as an indoctrination, I had thoughts before reading ZMM and Lila. I'll accept your statement that it's sheer nonsense, as soon as you've explained adequately why this would be the case.
>Only creatures possess consciousness, and only humans possess the
>self-consciousness necessary to "intellectualize" reality and derive value
>from the experience.
Is this a dogma or is this based on evidence or logic?
> Intellection is a subjective process whereby sense
>impressions are synthesized by the central nervous system into a systemized
>construct or cognizant perspective of physical reality.
Yes, with you so far, the intellect is a way of 'processing', among others, sential experience
Programmed into
>this perspective is a template (pattern or format) that includes the
>dimensions of time and space and that makes empirical knowledge universal,
>while the values realized by cognizant awareness remain proprietary to the
>individual subject.
This template may thus well be the 'layered' experience levels of our body/molecules/atoms etc. I don't see how this is such a big step or difference.
>So the question as to whether "objects exist before experience" can be
>reduced to: "Do time and space exist before experience?".
Time and space are concepts that are introduces somewhere in the valueing-chain. (that's my best guess at the moment anyway)
> The answer, IMO,
>is that they occur simultaneously WITH the experience, because it's
>experience that "creates" them.
I think I can agree to that.
And, because all experience is subjective,
>so is all the "otherness" it objectivizes. (The paradigm for this
>conclusion is extablished by Cusa's theory that Essence is not-other. Since
>conscious sensibility is also not-other, it is inextricably linked to
>Essence, hence the illusion of "otherness" is a secondary [subjective]
>illusion derived from primary Essence.)
Yes, to this I agree, consiousness is linked to Essence.
>
>> This is not a problem but a consequence of experiences
>> building on experiences.
>
>I don't catch your drift here. Perhaps what you say next is meant to
>explain it:
>> When we experience something, we experience the sum of
>> different layers of experience and we add a top layer, an
>> intellectual nomination, or an emotion, or something else,
>> that makes us think we experience the whole.
>> This IMO accounts for the universal patterns and the subjective
>> experience.
>
>If what you're defining is Value, then all you're asserting is that value is
>an "addition" to our proprietary reality experience that makes it appear
>"complete". Since I believe that Value represents the whole of Essence
>(which we're incapable of experiencing directly), I'm in general agreement
>with your conclusion, except that I would question the need for "layering"
>experience in this fashion.
The layered experience would replace your template and would answer the question why we all experience a very common reality.
>
>The question I still have is: Why is this intellectualized pattern of
>reality a universal experience? What is the significance of this particular
>cosmic "template" with its contingency of physical and mathematical laws and
>principles. In other words, could (or would) this particular design have
>been different if experienced by some non-human intellect?
>If you can provide a plausible answer to this question, you will earn my
>eternal gratitude and intellectual respect.
>
An answer, yes.
Plausible, probably not, since this is subjective and I take it you will not regard this answer as plausible.
We still agree on a lot of issues (more then we disagree).
Ham, please explain WHY you think that experiencing stops at the biological level. This is a mind matter issue that I would like to clarify.
Kind regards,
Reinier.
__________________________________________________________________
Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register
Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Sep 09 2005 - 08:44:57 BST