Re: MD Individuals and Collectives

From: Arlo J. Bensinger (
Date: Mon Sep 26 2005 - 03:40:52 BST

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    [Arlo previously, for the record]
    You defined a "patriot" as such: "Patriot" as defined by Merriam Webster: "one
    who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests." Those
    characters fail to meet the definition, especially in regards to elected
    "authority." To them, whatever is wrong in the world is America's fault.

    [Arlo pointed out that this definition made Limbaugh "unpatriotic" for his
    dissent about every action undertaken by the Clinton regime]

    He did not blame Clinton and America for all the world's problems in the
    same way as Chomsky, Moore, Mother Cynthia and that crowd blame Bush
    and America. But when Clinton committed perjury, the patriotic thing to do
    was impeach him.

    You changed the criteria again, how odd.

    Maybe you can tell me one definition of "patriot" that you'd like me to apply
    equally to "liberals" and "conservatives"?

    [Arlo previously]
    But here you tread into interesting territory. "Leading protests" against
    actions you government undertakes, that YOU find IMMORAL, is a being a

    [Platt had responded]
    No. That to give aid and comfort to the nation's enemies is traitorous. Check
    Article 3, Section 3 of our Constitution.

    [Arlo had replied]
    You said: I don't recall Limbaugh **leading protests** or giving aid and
    comfort to the enemy when Clinton sent American troops to Haiti and
    Kosovo, or when he bombed Iraq.

    So again, I ask, what is the difference between "leading protests" and
    "speaking out on a national radio program" with a stance of dissent from
    White House policies?

    You want to compare Mother Cynthia with Rush Limbaugh? She could no
    more fill three hours of talk radio than fly to the moon, much less hold an
    audience of millions.

    So the difference is... popularity? If you "lead protests" in dissent you're
    unpatriotic, if you host a national radio program in dissent you are a
    "patriot". Is that it?

    Once again, Platt, the only difference I can see is that when a conservative
    dissents from a liberal president, he is a "patriot", and when a liberal
    dissents from a conservative president, he is "unpatriotic". You've not said,
    or offered, anything to show otherwise.

    Once Congress has committed the country to war, I think it's the duty of
    the citizens to support the troops and not undermine their efforts with a
    constant barrage of criticism.

    So the highest source of morality we answer to is Congress?

    [Arlo previously]
    Which completely avoids the challenge. Can you name me any instance where
    you felt republican dissent was un-patriotic, or where you feel democratic
    dissent was patriotic?

    Sure. Democrats like Senator Lieberman of Connecticut who spoke out
    against Clinton's White House sexcapades was being patriotic. Republicans
    critical of the Bush Administration's refusal to stop illegal immigration
    are being patriotic.

    First, you've only answered half the question (both examples you shown you call
    "patriotic", you still need an example of a republican whose dissent to a
    liberal president was unpatriotic).

    Second, even your first example ignores the spirit of the challenge. I was
    remiss in retyping it, so I'll ask anew, show me an example where a democrat's
    dissent of a republican president is "patriotic"?aitor.
    There are times, sadly, when the cliche "I've seen the enemy, and he is us" must
    be dealt with. To think otherwise is to blindly support social
    patterns over everything else.

    You won't find me blindly supporting social patterns like liberal welfare
    programs like you do. But when our soldiers are put at risk by duly
    constituted democratic authority, I'll support them 100 percent. Finally, if you
    know of a better country than America, why not go there? Take about being a

    First, I never said I didn't like America. You always miss this key distinction.
    Being critical of the government, republican or democrat, is patriotic.
    Demanding reform to things you see as immoral is patriotic.

    Second, I have lived overseas before, and when my daughter is finished high
    school will likely return (or move somewhere). Not out of dislike for
    "America", but out of a desire to see and experience more of the world that our
    little continent.

    Third, but you admit you blindly support the government's decision to deploy the
    military. And you assume any dissent is done out of "uncaring" for the
    soldiers? Is that correct?


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