From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Oct 09 2005 - 12:13:48 BST
Erin, et al
I agree.
Only humans solve problems.
(That's all knowledge and science is about - Karl Popper)
Technology (eg a stone age axe) is just a tool in human hands.
As Erin says - Don't ever blame the technology.
(Has everybody read Einstien's letter to Roosevelt, about the A-Bomb,
or Friedrich Durrenmatt's play "Die Physiker" ?)
Ian
On 10/8/05, Erin <macavity11@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Arlo,
>
> I wasn't ever suggesting technology solved our
> problems. I was commenting on the attitude towards
> technology...which is why I put the ZMM quotes about
> technological hopelessness.
> Pirsig seems to me to be exploring the attitude of
> 'technology being the problem' .
>
> Maybe this is something though...does an expectation
> for technology to solve your problems lead to
> technological hopelessness?
>
> For example that "the failure of technology" seems
> analogous to saying the axe failed when it was used to
> kill a person and succeeded when use to cut up some
> logs.
>
> When I said I came to peace with technology after
> reading ZMM I was suggesting technology had solved my
> problems...it was more of an attitude adjustment. I
> still had the same problems but not longer felt
> comfortable blaming technology for them.
>
> Erin
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Arlo Bensinger <ajb102@psu.edu> wrote:
>
> > [Arlo jumps in]
> > Erin, if I understand Khaled correctly, he's not
> > saying that the technology
> > of Internet chatting is inferior to face-to-face per
> > se, but that the
> > technology of the Internet has not significantly
> > improved the dialogue
> > (bringing us closer together, making us more
> > empathetic/sympathetic). We
> > have a wider audience than ever before
> > (potentially), we have tons of bells
> > and whistles, and yet the conversation is really not
> > much better than the
> > conversations being had 50, 200, 500 years ago.
> >
> > I will agree, however, that the potential of the
> > Internet *is* significant
> > in offering global participation, inter-cultural
> > discourse, improved
> > perspectives, and access to multiple views on
> > information and greater
> > access to information. But, what we see when we look
> > at actual Internet use
> > (and many have) are primarily "closed-circuit"
> > information networks,
> > dominated by uniperspectives and mono-cultural
> > interactions. Independence
> > of information has been seriously eroded by "big
> > media" interests (now,
> > this is becoming increasingly true in the
> > "blogosphere" as well). In short,
> > we don't have the global, multiperspectival, open
> > dialogue that we could,
> > instead we fall back on old habits of closed,
> > uniperspectival, closed
> > dialogues that are the norm off the Internet.
> > Indeed, the fracturing of
> > media and dialogic networks means that most people
> > interact soley with
> > "like minded" people (or those who are "near
> > minded"), and never engage
> > opposition (real opposition) in discourse. (Or, when
> > we do engage
> > opposition (just like in "real life") the exchanges
> > tend to be monologic
> > soliloqueys bounced back and forth, and not real
> > dialogic, mutually
> > negotiated sympathetic exchanges.)
> >
> > The Internet has enable the MOQ group to connect
> > despite miles (and oceans)
> > inbetween. And that is good. But is our
> > participation any different,
> > really, from what it would be were we able to meet
> > in a bookstore once a
> > month? I'm not saying there are not advantages, and
> > things we should be
> > grateful for, but in terms of actually improving the
> > dialogue, the Internet
> > has not proven to be the panacea many hoped.
> >
> > Just my morning two cents...
> >
> > Arlo
> >
> >
> > At 01:28 AM 10/7/2005, you wrote:
> >
> > >I just don't get the failure of technology/chatting
> > at
> > >the water cooler is precious sentiment especially
> > if
> > >all the social bonding of this failure of
> > technology
> > >is being done over the internet.
> > >
> > >Is a discussion on the internet automatically lower
> > >quality than a discussion at the water cooler to
> > you?
> > >I just didn't get your post... In another post I
> > >changed the thread to technology to explore the
> > issue.
> > >
> > >
> > >Erin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As for the quality of life
> > > > as a whole, and I mean
> > > > the social aspect of us humans getting together
> > to
> > > > break bread, share a
> > > > drink and sing a song, things have gone
> > backward.
> > > >
> > > > That's why to this day, the most precious
> > moments
> > > > spent in an office, are
> > > > around the water cooler.
> > > >
> > > > take care
> > > >
> > > > Khaled
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- khaled Alkotob <khaledsa@juno.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Erin <macavity11@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > > > You are writing this to an INTERNET discussion
> > > > group.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Erin
> > > > >
> > > > Writing what?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> > > > Mail Archives:
> > > > Aug '98 - Oct '02 -
> > > > http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
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> > > >
> >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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