From: bahna@rpi.edu
Date: Thu Mar 13 2003 - 13:57:45 GMT
Platt and Matt,
My quote was:
“This means that when the secret police come, when the torturers
Violate the innocent, there is nothing to be said to them of the form ‘There
is something within you which you are betraying. Though you embody the
practices of a totalitarian society which will endure forever, there is
something beyond those practices which condemns you.’”
Platts Quote was:
There are no objective standards by which to evaluate or criticize social and
political practices. No matter what is done to the citizens of a country,
they can have no objective grounds on which to protest. Once men could
criticize political dictators. ‘There is something within you which you are
betraying. Though you embody the practices of a totalitarian society which
will endure forever, there is something beyond those practices which condemns
you.’ We can no longer say that. Now we know that there is no knowledge, no
values, no standards. Now we
must accept the fact that we have not once seen the Truth, and so will
not, intuitively, recognize it when we see it again. This means that when the
secret police come, when the torturers violate the innocent, there is nothing
to be said to them.”
The difference between the two quotes is “Once men could criticize political
dictators,” and “This means that when the secret police come, when the
torturers violate the innocent, there is nothing to be said to them” in
Platt’s quote. Rorty never said the first phrase, and in the latter one
Platt has removed the qualifier, “…of the form ‘There is something within you
which you are betraying.” So, the two quotes are dramatically different in
meaning. Platt was trying to be cute and twist Rorty words around to suit
his purpose. Of course, we can criticize political dictators. We just can’t
make an appeal to some absolutes. We have to criticize the dictator for
imposing a political system on individuals limiting the freedom of
individuals in their society. We don’t have any appeal to an absolute truth,
only an appeal to history and experience which demonstrates to us that
democracy is a better system. Individual rights should be respected above
national rights. Societies that put the individual above national interests
are better societies. Not because it is a “natural law,” but because it
allows humans to “cope” with their environment better. And, in the second
phrase, Platt removes the most important part the Rorty quote. There is
something to be said to the secret police. Mainly, “Get the hell out of my
house.” We just cannot say to them, “You are betraying your true form. You
were not meant to be a violent and ruthless torturer. Your true nature is to
be peaceful, loving and democratic.”
What needs to be said to the secret police and the torturers is that they are
not useful parts of our society and it is our responsibility to create a
society that does not value these institutions in society. BTW, a recent
times/CBS poll said that 64% of Americans believe torture is justified under
some circumstances. So, I guess, we have a long way to go before we do
create such a society.
Andy
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:42:48 -0600 Matt the Enraged Endorphin wrote:
> Platt,
>
> Platt said after quoting a very similar quote to the one Andy quoted:
> Quite a different meaning from the one you began your post with.
>
> Matt:
> Actually, they mean exactly the same thing. I'm curious, though. I know
>
> where Andy's comes from 'cuz I just looked it up. But I'm not sure where
>
> your's comes from. Any clues?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
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