From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Fri Mar 28 2003 - 14:24:07 GMT
Hi Steve,
> I don't think that all versions of Christianity or Islam operate at the
> intellectual level. Militant Fundamentalist Islam specifically does not
> operate at the intellectual level. To me this "war on terrorism" would be
> better explained in such terms.
I'm not sure that I agree that fundamentalisms are unintellectual. I think
they are pathologically low quality, but they are still on the intellectual
level, to my way of thinking (ie they are ideological). I think this is the
touchstone of a problem with the MoQ, as presented in Lila, and as it is of
great and increasing importance in our world, if the MoQ has anything to say
it ought to be able to say something about this.
> A war of terrorism cannot be won. Terrorism is only a tactic. We are at
> war (figuratively is not literally) with an ideology that denies reason
and
> it's products such as liberty, democracy, and equality.
I would deny that 'liberty, democracy and equality' are products of
'reason'. I think they're wonderful things, but surely they are built on
perceptions of value? In fact, this emphasis on 'reason' is part of the
problem with the West, as I see it, and underlies the reaction and hostility
of other cultures. It is part of general Western arrogance to say that
opposition is 'anti-reason' or 'unthinking'.
> Our leadership has taken great pains to distinguish the war on terrorism
> from a war against Islam but they should have only distinguished a war on
> militant fundamentalist Islam from a war against a version of Islam that
> does not see itself in conflict with intellectual values or seek to
destroy
> Western society. The result of not accurately naming the enemy has
allowed
> every other country to claim solidarity in our war because of their own
> so-called terrorist troubles, and has left many wondering what the
> difference is between a freedom fighter and a terrorist in some cases.
Good point.
> If we do successfully impose universal suffrage, religious freedom, and
> democracy on Fundamentalist Militant Muslims, such an imposition of our
> values would be moral because our values are better than theirs. (It's
sad
> that we are so reluctant to make such a claim.) What is immoral is the
> Militant Islam's attempt to impose social control over intellect.
Do you think it is possible to 'impose' democracy? I suspect that it isn't -
you can only remove the factors which prevent it. Can you give instances of,
eg, Bin Laden's 'attempt to impose social control over intellect'? I don't
deny it, I just couldn't think of an example. And what if - through
incompetence in different spheres - such an 'imposition' fails - is the last
consequence not the worst?
> There is a conflict of values going on, but I don't think it's hard to
know
> which side is more moral under the MOQ.
My worry is that the flaws in the West prove terminal. Maybe I'm just in a
Spenglerian mood.
>
> You quoted:
> Pirsig also writes (p317)
> "Cultures can be graded and judged morally according to their contribution
> to the evolution of life."
>
> ... And the intellectual level is the highest level of evolution so it
> follows that cultures can be judged according to the intellectual freedom
> that they sustain. Your point that it all comes crashing down if the
social
> level fails to control biological patterns is taken, but it seems to me
that
> one would measure the health of the whole system at the top (as biologists
> measure the health of an ecosystem based on that of the predators). If
the
> intellectual level is thriving, it must be because the social level *is*
> controlling biology.
Very good point indeed. I like that image.
Thanks for the comments
Sam
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