From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Apr 15 2003 - 22:06:21 BST
This post also left something out I wish I had said:
That "pure morality", or "descriptive" morality that I wrote about, the
different kind of morality that is NOT the "spoken morality" Rorty says is
on a continuum with prudence - is the ontological morality that Pirsig says
everything is. Everything is NOT prudence, everything is patterns, aka
expectations, aka Morality, whether prudent or not.
Johnny
>From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD God relieves from suffering?
>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:09:38 +0000
>
>Hi Matt, all,
>
>>Matt said:
>>I simply want to add the context to what the Rorty quote refers to. Rorty
>>advocates getting rid of the _metaphysical_ distinction of kind between
>>morality and prudence, like the one Kant used. In a Deweyan fashion,
>>Rorty reads morality and prudence as on a continuum. Prudence describes
>>"familiar and relatively uncontroversial ways in which individuals and
>>groups adjust to the stresses and strains of their non-human and human
>>environment." ("Ethics without Principles") Morality, on the other hand,
>>is invented "when we can no longer just do what comes naturally, when
>>routine is no longer good enough, or when habit and custom no longer
>>suffice." (ibid.) On Rorty and Dewey's account, the continuum between
>>morality and prudence is "the degree of need for conscious deliberation
>>and explicit formulation of precepts."
>>
>>The funny thing I find about this whole thing is that I view Pirsig as
>>entering into this Deweyan pragmatist strain. The way I see it, when
>>Pirsig makes Quality his reality metaphor he obliterates the distinction
>>of kind between prudence and morality. He says everything's morality at
>>one point in Lila. On the other hand, I think Pirsig does make some
>>metaphysical (read: non-pragmatist) moves that compromise this initial
>>pragmatist formulation, for instance, the distinction in kind between
>>social and intellectual.
>>
>>Matt
>
>So, if we have to name something as quote "moral", as the "moral thing to
>do", rather than just usually unconsciously doing it without explicitly
>formulating anything, then we've entered into a realm of prudence. But I
>think before, when it was just a static pattern of habit and custom, an
>unthinking tendency, it was actually truly moral in a descriptive sense, as
>in the mores of a culture. If people might not do what is expected or
>habitual, and other people get upset, then what is habitual and expected
>gets explicitly named as "moral". And as soon as people start talking
>about it, it becomes a question of prudence, because people demand proof
>from morality now, it was never really possible to just say "because it is
>moral", we have always had to give a prudent reason as well (at least, to
>young, immature rebels. wise people accept pure morality as a valid
>reason, imo). I think there is a distinction of kind as soon as you start
>talking about it, and at that point you are on a continuum between named,
>explicit morality and prudence. But unnamed morality is a real distinction
>from named morality, and i think it's very insightful of you to make the
>connection, it is the same "thinking about" distinction that some of us
>decided was the difference between social and intellectual levels. Perhaps
>Intellectual level is conscious deliberation and explicit formulation of
>precepts found at the social level.
>
>Johnny
>
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