Re: MD The Eudaimonic MoQ

From: Wim Nusselder (
Date: Fri May 23 2003 - 07:17:03 BST

  • Next message: Elizaphanian: "Re: MD 'unmediated experience'"

    Dear Sam,

    Some more disjointed remarks on some or your reactions to my responses to
    your essay:

    You wrote 19 May 2003 12:30:46 +0100:
    'I think "eudaimonic" is a more fruitful description of level 4, ie it's not
    just that I don't like the standard account - even if these flaws in the
    standard account were overcome, I would still prefer a "eudaimonic"

    So our discussion should shift to your reasons for preferring your version
    of the MoQ (contrary to your essay, which was structured as: standard
    account > problems > solution > possible arguments against that solution).

    You gave a hint with:
    'one of the things I most like about the "eudaimonic" thesis, [is] clarity
    with regard to ethical motivations'.

    Aren't you talking about 'morality' in the old, SOM-ruled sense here? I.e.
    'morality' only in the sense of 'values ruling/guiding individual
    behavior/actions' and not in the sense of 'values constituting

    Your replied 19 May 2003 12:30:46 +0100 with 'OK' to my:
    'The reality we try to describe is our experience and the fact that
    sometimes we do NOT experience subject-object (or even subject-subject)
    differentiation indicates (and -if we rule out delusion- proves) that
    descriptions requiring choosing/acting subjects are false.'

    I have the slight impression that your Eudaimonic MoQ DOES require
    choosing/acting subjects to be intelligible...

    You 19 May 2003 12:30:46 +0100 summarized your view on the distinction
    between 3rd and 4th level most succinctly in:
    'I see the distinction being defined by the emergence of a static pattern of
    (level 3) values that is able to dissent from the dominant patterns which
    created it, and thereby 'go off on patterns of its own' - I call this the
    autonomous individual.'

    This seems muddy to me: A 3rd level pattern of value (not 'values' in my
    view!) that is created by other 3rd level patterns of value??? And you mean
    'go off on purposes of its own'. So the same 'choosing unit' can latch both
    3rd level patterns of value (before 'going off ...') and 4th level patterns
    of value (afterwards)??

    With friendly greetings,


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