From: Pi (pi@mideel.ath.cx)
Date: Wed Jun 04 2003 - 02:28:53 BST
Hi johnny, thanks for the new thread.
If asked the question "Do you think that we as humans have free will?",
I come up with the following statement:
"For all intents and purposes, yes, we have free will."
This satisfies [I explain below why I think this is "satisfying"] most
people who are not aware of MOQ. They accept this response as a "yes".
However, the readers of this mailing list will see that this is actually a
"no". :)
We are bound to the static patterns of quality, only occasionally stepping
outside the static bounds to the dynamic and changing. That change itself
is a modification of the static pattern. This suggests that we retain a
large portion of the original static pattern. The retention of the
original static patterns severly limits our will. To get back to my sample
response above, the "intents and purposes" refer to the static space. I
think that we have "free will" within the confines of the static patterns.
But of course, as johnny hinted, static Quality patterns "choose". We do
not.
This conclusion is quite unsettling with those of us with the western
world mind set. Concept of "Freedom" is ingrained into our minds and
suddenly learning that our dear MOQ doesn't support it makes us step back.
:)
Anyway, this is what I have to say about free will. Thoughts anyone? How
would you answer such a question?
- Pi
On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, johnny moral wrote:
> Hi Pi and August,
>
> >The point you bring up about "free will" deserves a new thread because it
> >is too much of a tangent. In short, as I understand it, under MOQ, human
> >choice and the choices a lightning makes are not very different. Just
> >because we can predict path of a lightining bolt with some accuracy does
> >not imply that it does not have a choice. A lightining bolt "chooses" a
> >path of highest quality and so do each of us. But let us start a new
> >thread if anyone would like to examine this tangent in more detail.
>
> While I don't think free will is tangential to a "man-made or natural?"
> thread at all, I'm very happy to start a thread about this. I think this
> topic is misunderstood a lot here, and that means morality is misunderstood
> and belittled. Understanding that what we choose to do is dependent on
> Quality (aka Morality, Reality) is key to properly respecting quality and
> morality. Believing in free will insults Quality and removes yourself from
> history.
>
> I think you are right Pi that lightning and human choices are not different.
> They both choose the path of highest perceived quality at the moment of
> choosing. Note though, that what they perceive is dependent on the quality,
> not on them (the quality creates the perceiver and the perceived). Thus, at
> the moment of choosing, they are both bound to choose the path that quality
> (morality) presents to them. Lightning can not choose any path but the one
> that appears best, and neither can we. We can deliberate longer than
> lightning, but in the final analysis, the action that we do is always what
> appears best, it is what we want to do most at that moment.
>
> I recommend Jonathan Edwards (or books about him) as he is the brightest
> light on the subject, and absolutely up to date and compatible with the MoQ.
> I'm going to type in some excerpts from some books about him (James
> Carse's in particular, Sang Hyun Lee's also) soon that ought to leave
> MoQ'ers mouths agape.
>
> BTW, it's Edwards 300th birthday this year! I think I will try to attend
> this symposium:
>
> http://www.yale.edu/wje/html/JE-300.html
>
> Johnny
>
> >Hi August,
> >
> >Thanks for bringing up that example. What I am trying to point out is that
> >the tree is *not* the same whether you see it or not! It is completely
> >dependent on the viewer. I believe it was in LILA where Pirsig mentioned
> >that when we blink, the reason we don't think that the world has ended is
> >because of the "continuation" static intellectual pattern that we have
> >adopted. Your tree example is very similar. One other example I would like
> >to point out from Pirsig is from zmm. Recall his rant about gravity not
> >existing before Newton coined the term and developed the theory. I would
> >like to invite you to explain this example using your theory of
> >perception.
> >
> >The point you bring up about "free will" deserves a new thread because it
> >is too much of a tangent. In short, as I understand it, under MOQ, human
> >choice and the choices a lightning makes are not very different. Just
> >because we can predict path of a lightining bolt with some accuracy does
> >not imply that it does not have a choice. A lightining bolt "chooses" a
> >path of highest quality and so do each of us. But let us start a new
> >thread if anyone would like to examine this tangent in more detail.
> >
> >Take care,
> >
> >- Pi
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, August West wrote:
> >
> > > Pi
> > >
> > > Even if I have never seen a tree; its shape and
> > > structure is the same whether I personally, as an
> > > individual have seen it or not. Perception is
> > > relative to an individual, just as choices are. As a
> > > human I have a choice, a conscience
> > > choice about what I do next, nature doesn't. While
> > > lightning may "jump" rain drops to get to the ground
> > > following the path of least resistance; it has no
> > > choice about this property (quality) of lightning (and
> > > electricity in general). It works the same everytime.
> > >
> > > Does this example help?
> > > -August
> > >
> > > P.S. Anyone read "Faster than the Speed of Light"? I
> > > can't remember the author's name, I remember he is
> > > Portugese though. Speed of Light was variable to
> > > overcome the Horizon Problem in the Big Bang Theory;
> > > it is strictly theortical, but very, very interesting.
> > >
> > > --- Pi <pi@mideel.ath.cx> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi August,
> > > >
> > > > I would have to disagree. I don't think there is any
> > > > thing called
> > > > "absolute perfection". A tree is not a tree (as we
> > > > usually define it) to a
> > > > person who has never seen one. The tree is different
> > > > for this person.
> > > > Perhaps this person is blind and only knows a tree
> > > > by the way it sounds
> > > > (during a windy night) or the way it feels. It is a
> > > > perfect tree for this
> > > > person; Just like how it is a perfect tree for you.
> > > > But it is *not*
> > > > absolute.
> > > >
> > > > Similarly, 'a' is just a bunch of squigly lines to a
> > > > person who doesn't
> > > > read english (or any syntactically similar
> > > > language). Perhaps it is not
> > > > even a bunch of lines for this person if they do not
> > > > know the concept
> > > > of lines! 'a' is still "perfect" for this person.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, the real point I want to stress with these
> > > > examples is that
> > > > absolute perfection does not exist because we all do
> > > > not share
> > > > intellectual patterns. If we did, there would be no
> > > > need for a discussion
> > > > forum. ;) An object you touch/see/feel/smell/taste
> > > > is only there as a
> > > > static intellectual pattern.
> > > >
> > > > And, yes, I do agree with the later part about
> > > > "relative perfection". I
> > > > think I have reinstated that point with the examples
> > > > above.
> > > >
> > > > Take care,
> > > >
> > > > - Pi
> > > > http://pirsig.ath.cx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, August West wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Pi;
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Nic may mean "perfect" in the sense
> > > > that
> > > > > trees are always trees; that an object is an
> > > > object;
> > > > > that a is a, is always perfect. This is a
> > > > definition
> > > > > of "perfect" that is absoulte. Writing a perfect
> > > > essay
> > > > > would however, be relative; as you indicated. It
> > > > is
> > > > > however, not impossiable to be "realtively
> > > > perfect".
> > > > > i.e. an essay that accomplishes all its goals
> > > > would be
> > > > > "relatively perfect".
> > > > >
> > > > > -August
> > > > > --- Pi <pi@mideel.ath.cx> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another thing I would like to point out is that
> > > > > > there no `absolute
> > > > > > perfection'. When you say "...the perfection in
> > > > any
> > > > > > essay...", you seem to
> > > > > > be referring to some absolute definition of
> > > > > > perfection. As I understand
> > > > > > it, the definition of perfection is very
> > > > relative to
> > > > > > our own static
> > > > > > patterns of quality. For example, I believe that
> > > > > > Pirsig's ZMM is an
> > > > > > excellent book, but obviously everyone who has
> > > > read
> > > > > > the book does not
> > > > > > share this opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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