From: Valence (valence10@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun Jul 06 2003 - 21:27:23 BST
Hey David, Platt, Johnny and all,
I'd like to thank David for changing the title of this thread to something I
believe better reflects the actual conflict. However, this will be most
last post on this topic as I believe that I will never convince Platt or
Johnny otherwise and I'd rather spend my time on more potentially fruitful
discussions. My final responses on the thread to all involved are below.
David first...
DMB
Clearly, this is a
> case where intellectual values won over particular social values, and
> understood in terms of Pirsig's codes, this is a great moral victory. A
> higher, more inclusive and expansive set of moral values were validated by
> the courts decision. Laws based on nothing more than bigotry and hateful,
> obsolete religious sentiments were struck down. Social codes came into
> conflict with the principle of the individual's right to privacy and
rights
> won. This is a good thing.
R
Agreed, agreed, agreed. Now, Johnny....
> >R
> >George W. Bush is the leader of a vast homosexual agenda to make violent
> >crusades against morality? Are we talking about the George W. Bush who
> >is currently the President of the United States?
J
> An intellectual agenda that benefits from homosexuality, yes.
R
I am literally dumbfounded by this. You are so trapped in your own theories
that you really give absolutely no credit to people for what they claim to
be their own beliefs. George W. Bush is a life-long politically
ultra-conservative, hard-right Christian republican of the kind who thinks
public school children should be made to pray and abortion is evil even in
cases of rape and incest. "Morality" and "family values" appear promptly in
virtually every speech the man has ever given. He's very openly anti-gay
and very openly supported the law which was struck down in Lawrence. And
yet, you would have it sound as though he was the Pope of San Francisco.
How am I supposed to argue with someone who concludes that one of the most
conservative presidents we've ever had is an agent of a homosexual
conspiracy?
Finally, Platt...
> > RICK
> > That is true, there is no explicit right to privacy in the Constitution.
> > However, there's nothing in the Constitution that explicitly gives the
> > states the right to regulate sexual conduct either.
P
> The 10th Amendment is specific in what rights are left to the states to
> determine: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the
> Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the
> States respectively, or to the people."
R
Did you actually read the 10th amendment or did you just copy it into your
post? If you read it all the way through, you will see that it reserves all
powers not enumerated to the Federal government to either the states or to
THE PEOPLE!!! What that means is that somethings can only be decided by
the federal government, and everything else belongs either to the state
governments to decide, or to every individual to decide for them themselves.
How you read that as saying "the states can regulate all sexual conduct" is
quite a marvel of interpretation.
P
What I
> see is a minority on the supreme court deciding for a majority in Texas
> what their standards of decency ought to be.
R
Disagree. The court said every single citizen of Texas can now decide for
themselves. That sounds like a majority of Texans to me.
P
I do not like to see the
> judiciary encroaching on legislative territory.
R
They didn't. Interpreting the Constitution is the Supreme Court's exclusive
territory.
P
That way lies tyranny.
R
Liberty is the enemy of tyranny. The way to tyranny lies in entirely
surrendering one's own right to decide to any government body (court,
legislature or president). Giving the power to decide directly to the
people, as the Court did in Lawrence, is a step away from tyranny towards
liberty and towards Dynamic Quality.
take care
rick
The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its
strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the
foundations of society. - Thomas Jefferson
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