From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Jul 07 2003 - 20:49:33 BST
Hi Rick,
>Hi Johnny and all,
>
> > J:
> > But social patterns aren't "invented" like that - I see "invented"
>social
> > patterns as being iintellectual patterns trying to control society. I
>think
> > as soon as there were two humans, there were social patterns that
>describe
> > the way the two humans interact. If they kept to opposite sides of the
>lake
> > and always ran away from each other, then that was the social pattern.
> > Patterns describe existing behavior and things, habits and ttendencies.
>
>R
>That would mean that there was never a point in history when there existed
>humans without social patterns (and it would make it more difficult to
>explain why Pirsig thinks only humans pattern socially). Moreover, I
>would
>think that social "patterning" would require multiple humans behaving in
>accordance with some "pattern". But I'll think about it some more and get
>back to you.
While you are thinking I'll say that yes, more than two humans are required
to form a pattern. I think humans evolved along with their social and
intellectual patterns, they didn't get to the cro-magnon stage and then all
of a sudden start relating to each other in moral ways. They already had
set patterns of how to relate to each other that had a lot to do with how
they got to be cro-magnon in the first place. If the social patterns had
been different, if neanderthals tended to kill each other more or less than
they did, or shared their food more or less, then cro-magnons would be
different (do I have that right? neanderthals then cro-magnons?).
Please keep thinking about "invented social patterns." Do you mean that
society invented them on its own, or that people invented them? I'm with
you if you want to say that society creates its own patterns in ways that
seem best to it, as other social patterns begin to interact and as
biological patterns interact in new ways, causing new social patterns to
form as that new interaction occurs more frequently. As soon as there is
a discernable tendency to act in one way most of them time, then a moral
pattern has been created.
Johnny
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