RE: RE: MD The Giant (types of patterns/types of people)

From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Mon Jul 21 2003 - 13:08:28 BST

  • Next message: Platt Holden: "RE: MD Intellectual patterns? huh?"

    Hi DMB,

    > Steve said:
    > I was dumbfounded in the past about DMB's insistance that Lila doesn't
    > manipulate language-based symbols that stand for patterns of experience.
    > But if you keep in mind that DMB only thinks of the levels as types of
    > people, then his position on Lila's intellect makes sense. I think you'd
    > agree that she is not an intellectual. To DMB this means she diesn't 'exist
    > on the intellectual level' or something like that.
    >

    dmb said:
    > I only think of the levels as types of people? No. You have misunderstood.
    > I've not accomodated your request to talk about static patterns all by
    > themselves for reasons I've already tried to explain. Its true that I DO
    > think that people are the BEST way to talk about the levels because that's
    > how the various values are exhibited in real life. People ARE the patterns
    > and so we can see what values are being upheld by an examination of specific
    > people. More to the point, the reason I don't take Lila's ability to speak
    > English as a sign of her intellectual quality, besides the undisputable fact
    > that the author says she has none, is that plain language only requires the
    > social level. The intellect is not necessary to speak. If that were true our
    > ancestors would have been mute until about 500BC and you and I would not
    > have uttered a word until we were in high school. Language is NOT the kind
    > of symbol manipulation refered to in the LC definition. The use of language
    > in the social level sense does not allow for such manipulation, only
    > conventional use. Even children can talk, right? Does anybody imagine that
    > your average 5 or 10 year old could rightly be called intellectual? I don't.

    Here you go again. You want to equate 'being an intellectual' which is a term for people with high intellectual quality with participating in intellectual patterns. I don't see these as the same, and here is where I think you get confused by mixing up types of people with types of patterns.

    > Steve said:
    > You are talking past him when you suggest that Lila is participating in
    > intellectual patterns of value despite not being an intellectual type of
    > person. He doesn't like to talk about patterns of value so the distinction
    > has no meaning for him.
    >
    > dmb says:
    > I don't like to talk about patterns of value? Huh? That's about ALL I do.
    > You just don't like the WAY I talk about them, which is in terms of specific
    > examples. I would have thought such would be helpful and that it really
    > doesn't help to talk about it in vague generalities. And let me say that
    > when I discuss the levels of values in terms of specific people like Lila,
    > I'm not talking about her personality or style. I'm talking about the VALUES
    > she holds - or rather the values that hold her, that dominate her forest.

    I could certainly agree that Lila is not dominated by intellectual patterns, but that is not the same as saying that she doesn't participate in intellectual patterns at all.

    > "Does Lila have Quality? Biologically she does, socially she doesn't.
    > Obviously! Evolutionary morality just splits that whole question open like a
    > watermelon. .. Biologicall she's fine, socially she's pretty far down the
    > scale, INTELLECTUALLY SHE'S NOWHERE."
    >
    > "She missed the whole point of everything. She's after Quality, like
    > everybody else, but she defines it entirely in biological terms. She DOESN'T
    > SEE INTELLECTUAL QUALITY AT ALL. Its outside her range."

    Steve:
    'Intellectually nowhere' reads as hyperbole to me. It is a novel after all, we can expect him to use such literary devices.

    Lila is 'pretty far down the scale' socially. That means to me that she participates in low quality social patterns, not that she doesn't have very many social patterns. When Pirsig talks about Lila's insanity, he describes it as having really bad intellectual patterns. Pirsig is talking about the quality rather than the quantity of Lila's social and intellectual patterns.

    Thanks,
    Steve

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