From: Valence (valence10@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Jul 23 2003 - 02:34:37 BST
Hey Jon, Bo, and all,
Jon
> First let me deal with Rick and Bo discussing how the intellectual of the
> Intellectual level is not the same as the intellect of pre/post
intellectual
> awareness.
> I am very unhappy about this - I think it muddies the whole concept. It
> shoves intellect into two completely different parts of the MoQ hierarchy,
> thus greatly diminishing its meaning. This is very similar to Pirsig's
> objection (in ZAMM) of how classical (SO) philosophy destroys the Quality
> concept.
R
In your first sentence you correctly noted that my argument was that the
'4th level intellect' and the 'pre/post intellect' are not the same thing.
But then you went on to object on the basis that i'm trying to 'shove
intellect into two completely different parts of the MoQ'. However, your
objection clearly begs the question of whether both terms refer to the same
"intellect". For if the two terms refer to different things, then I'm NOT
trying to shove one "intellect" into two different parts of the MoQ.
Rather, I'm trying to show how two different parts of the MoQ that have been
associated with the term "intellect", are actually distinct. Before you can
employ the ZMM argument you referred to, you need to show that both
"intellects" are, in fact, the same. If you do that, then you can object on
the basis that I'm putting the one and only "intellect" into two different
parts of the MoQ.
J
> Rick went on to make some substantive comments about my earlier post:
> <<<In LILA (ch12 p172) Pirsig claims that if you construct an encyclopedia
> of
> four topics- Inorganic, Biological, Social and Intellectual- nothing is
left
> out (except DQ)....
> Jonathan replies:
> Rick, when I first presented this idea in the last century, I followed
> Pirsig's obsession that nothing should be left out.
> I now realize that something is ALWAYS left out (isn't that what Gödel is
> all about?). Specifically, to put it in Pirsigian terms, the patterns
> contained within the levels are Static Quality, and what is left out is
> Dynamic Quality. This is the reason that doing metaphysics is degenerate.
R
I agree with all of this, but I don't see how it answers my objection. I
agree that DQ is always left out. But no *static* patterns should be
excluded.
J
> It now makes more sense to me. Preintellectual reality is quality before
the
> cleaver of intellect strikes and interprets it as distinct patterns.
R
Yes! Exactly. This is precisely how I see it. I think the only difference
between our views (as discussed in this thread) is that I think when the
hammer of intellect strikes, the chord sounds in 4 tones and you seem to
think it sounds in 3.
J
> Rick also raised some good points about where (level wise) to put
imaginary
> patterns like "kryptonite" and fictional characters in novels. I would
> suggest that our awareness of patterns like these (and also abstract
> patterns like numbers, equations etc.) is always in relation to
"real-world"
> analogies. Thus the level at which such patterns exist lie in our "level
of
> awareness" of them. (That's the short answer anyway - perhaps more
> explanation is in order).
R
More explanation would be appreciated. You admit that Lila and Kryptonite
are static patterns, but you seem to get vague when giving those static
patterns a home in the MoQ. Where in the MoQ Encyclopedia of Static
Patterns is this "level of awareness" you refer to? Do you see it as a
"level" in the same sense that you see the Inorganic, Biological and Social
patterns as "levels"?
Nonetheless, I suspect our views are not as disparate as they may seem.
take care
rick
Just once in a while let us exalt the importance of ideas and information. -
Edward R. Murrow
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