From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Aug 05 2003 - 18:44:49 BST
Hi Platt,
OK. It's just that he doesn't want us to mix the ant social level in with
the human social level. He's worried that we will think ants and "cells
belong in the social level", so he arrives at the solution of just saying
"for purposes of precision, in the MOQ social patterns should be defined as
HUMAN and subjective." I agree that ants and bees do not belong in the
HUMAN social level, but to say that dogs and chimps have no social patterns
is almost as silly as saying that they do not have brains and do not think.
Another way to avoid putting ants and bees in the social level would have
been to say that different species all have their own social level that are
for the most part distinct (some species have patterns of interaction with
each other), and as we are humans, we are only concerned with the human
social level.
So I don't think I will concede this point. Pirsig made an arbitrary and
expedient distinction that obfuscates understanding of what social patterns
are. By "subjectively" choosing what is in the social level, he is applying
intellectual and social values to the level after the fact.
Johnny
>Hi Johnny, Rick:
>
>R
> > >I don't
> > >think wolves have social patterns. I believe their behavior is
> > >entirely genetically hard-wired.
>
>J
> > Do you disagree that a species evolved its bioogical patterns
> > simultaneously with its social patterns? Fish that travelled in schools
> > evolved differently from fish that 'thought for themselves' (the
> > Plattfish?) because the social patterns (or relative lack of them) made
> > different biological traits beneficial.
>
>In the MOQ there are no animal, vegetable or mineral "social patterns."
>Pirsig makes this clear in Lila's Child, Note 49:
>
>"'Societies' is used figuratively here as a more colorful word meaning
>'groups.' If I had known it would be taken literally as evidence that
>cells belong in the social level I would not have used it. Maybe in a
>future edition it can be struck out. One can also call ants and bees
>"social" insects, but for purposes of precision in the MOQ social
>patterns should be defined as HUMAN and subjective." (emphasis added)
>
>Platt
>
>Simplicity is the essence of the great, the true and the beautiful in
>art. - George Sand
>
>
>
>
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