From: SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
Date: Sun Sep 14 2003 - 18:01:33 BST
Jonathan and MDiscuss.
11 Sep. Jonathan wrote:
> According to *PIRSIG's* MoQ, mind=Intellectual+Social levels
> He says so explicitly in Lila (not that I like it)
Skutvik:
I know, but it's the definition of intellect as "an exact equivalent to
mind" that I object to.
squonk: 'The mind-matter paradoxes seem to exist because the connecting limks
between these two levels of value patterns have been disregarded. Two terms
are missing: biology and society. Mental patterns do not originate out of
inorganic nature. They originate out of society, which originates out of biology
which originates out of inorganic matter. And, as anthropologists know so well,
what a mind thinks is as dominated by social patterns as social patterns are
dominated by biological patterns and as biological patterns are dominated by
inorganic patterns. There is no direct scientific connection between mind and
matter.'
Also:
PIRSIG in a letter to Ant McWatt Jan 2nd 1998:
"To prevent confusion, the MOQ treats 'mind' as the
exact equivalent of 'static intellectual patterns' and
avoids use of the term when possible."
Note that mind is a term not used in the MoQ - we say static intellectual
patterns instead. These patterns are in a relationship with DQ.
> BO
> Thus "intellectual description" is reality describe from the
> intellectual level, no great revelation that, but intellect is not a
> mind realm, rather the value of separating the abstract from the
> concrete.
> JONATHAN
> Abstract vs. Concrete heh!
> If that isn't Descartes, then I don't know what is!!!
squonk: It would appear the Skutvik doctrine is Cartesian.
Skutvik:
Of course it is. I have been proposing this for a decade or so.
squonk: For a decade or so a Cartesian doctrine has been proposed.
Skutvik:
This cuts the whole d..ed Gordic knot clean through!!. Q-intellect is the
S/O, all of it, every last bit, while the MOQ is the intellectual pattern ...
..ambiguous enough for DQ to use it for the escape from intellect.
squonk: Subjects and objects are culturally derived artistic creations of the
intellect. They are static intellectual patterns of value. A better
intellectual pattern is the MoQ, with its reference to the Tao or DQ.
The term Q-intellect is meaningless in the MoQ.
> BO
> What is
> described in ZAMM as pre-intellectual and gives rise to the
> subject/object reality is the intellectual LEVEL of the MOQ, but there
> are three more levels where no such division exists!.
> JONATHAN
> That may be according to Bodvar's MoQ, but is nothing like what Pirsig
> said. He said that the "Social level" is on the mind and subject side
> of the Cartesian split. I don't find that approach to be useful.
squonk: See above regarding this.
Skutvik:
My MOQ? I accept all the Quality axioms, why is the SOLAQI so
outrageous?
squonk: You do not accept the MoQ.
> JONATHAN
> I stand by it - patterns at all levels can be "intellectualized".
> That's what pattern description/definition is!
Skutvik:
You (too) seem to fall in the language trap, as if Q-evolution reached
the intellectual stage along with language, but this can't be so. The
social reality lasted for tens of thousands of years (the Cro Magnons
the first to use language I'm told. 50k years ago) and hey surely
"described" many things and made up a lot of theories so THAT can't
define intellect.
squonk: Language is high intellectual value.
PIRSIG: Within this evolutionary relationship it is
possible to see that intellect has functions that
predate science and philosophy. The intellect's
evolutionary purpose has never been to discover an
ultimate meaning of the universe. That is a relatively
recent fad. Its historical purpose has been to help a
society find food, detect danger, and defeat enemies.
It can do this well or poorly, depending on the
concepts it invents for the purpose." Lila Ch 24
Skutvik:
But ...attention, language may have been the social pattern that DQ
rode to intellect and is now found in every "intellectual" pattern in the
same way that carbon is found in every living being. And language will
forever be part of Q-evolution in the same sense that the carbon atom
is BUT IT DOES NOT DEFINE Q-INTELLECT.
squonk: The term Q-intellect is an invention of the Skutvik doctrine and is
meaningless in the MoQ.
Skutvik:
But another mechanism kicks in: All levels in their era as top notch
denies any value above itself, and everybody seem to be under
intellect's spell these days. We get all these weird definition among
those your own about all existence having an intellectual "shadow".
MOQ is the first effort to transgress intellects borders, but its initial
promising variety - the one that defined intellectual reality as the
origin of the S/O divide - is now attacked from all quarters.
Sincerely.
Bo
squonk: Subjects and Objects are culturally derived.
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