From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Nov 03 2003 - 19:47:59 GMT
Nietzsche suggests that free will only occurred
when men in society had to make promises
to each other and takes responsibility for
their future actions, then the individual came into being.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick van den Berg" <cirandar@yahoo.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: MD Two theories of truth
> Hi DMB,
>
> Don't want to change the discussion, just something about language and
> intellect.
> Pirsig was quoted:
> > "They have their genesis in society the same way that society has its
> > genesis in biology. WIthout biology there is no society. Without
> > society
> > there is no intellect since there would be no one to talk to anyone
> > else and
> > thus no language to speak and thus nothing to contain the ideas."
> >
>
> I can agree with this.
> However, later DMB writes:
>
> > In the same way that biology preceeds society,
> > language
> > preceeds intellect. He makes the same point in several different ways.
> > Maybe
> > you rememeber where he corrects Descartes. He re-phrases the famous
> > quote
> > as, "French culture exists, therefore I think, therefore I am". (Or
> > something like that) Also this evolutionary relationship is built
> > right into
> > his hierarchy, the moral codes, the four levels and all that.
>
> "the four levels 'and all that' ": means that you regard the four levels
> not as supreme as some others here do? Anyhow, I disagree with 'biology
> preceeds society, language preceeds intellect'. If I were an advocate of
> the devil, I'd argue that even the first statement is untrue: hasn't
> life evolved in a symbiosis? Even a single simple cell couldn't survive
> with other cells around: so cells and a 'society' consisting of chemical
> and other interactions between these cells were created at the same
> time.
> But that's just stretching words like 'society'. More fundamental is my
> disagreement with the 'language preceeds society'.
> Dolphins have bigger neocortici than humans do. Do they have language?
> It seems so. Well, tigers then. Do they have language? They don't have
> the vocal apperatus to create complex soundstrings needed for language.
> I think that's the major stumbling block for them to DEVELOP their
> ideas. But their brains must be quite sophisticated. How many brilliant,
> smart, completative, abstract, intellectual ideas some tigers might have
> had in the last ten thousand years? We don't know, simply because they
> couldn't express, communicate or 'hold on to' them. Moreover, they don't
> have the body-tools humans have: hands. Humans can hold on to ideas,
> develop and communicate them etc. and can put them to practical use by
> literally using their hands, which enables further development of the
> intellect (maybe simply because dolphins don't have hands they haven't
> been able to dominate the world like humans do).
> So, the spark of intellectual or abstract (from the momentary perception
> cut off) thought might be there in lots of brilliant animal minds, they
> just don't have the fuel or wood to make a fire and sustain it.
>
> Greetings, Patrick.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward -
http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Nov 03 2003 - 19:58:48 GMT