From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Sun Jan 04 2004 - 15:25:09 GMT
Platt and Jon (thanks for the "DoI" info;)
1 Jan. Platt wrote
> Looks like we're on the same page when it comes to deciding where Pirsig
> stands in the battle of values currently being fought between radical
> Islam, Western Europe secular socialism and American Judeo-Christian
> capitalism. (Your point about America not being a purely capitalistic
> country is well taken. We have many so-called "social programs," but the
> drift is definitely toward the conservative end of the spectrum whereby
> individuals are asked to take on more responsibility for the quality of
> their own lives vs. Europe where the drift appears to be going in the
> opposite direction.)
I find your evaluation of the European experience a bitt odd (maybe
it can be called secular but the socialist part??) - but as the
discussion has picked up speed again and deep MOQ question
arise by the score let's drop it.
> One point of confusion, however, occurs which I hope you can reconcile for
> me. On the one hand, you say:
> > Judeo-Christian capitalism? It's commonly accepted that Marx was
> > inspired by early Christendom's policy of contributing according to
> > ability and receiving according to need. But from the following I
> > understand that you mean Victorian Morality.
> Here you place the American experience squarely at the social level, a
> position you confirm:
Not the present American experience, but you cited LILA:
He laments the loss of the Judeo-Christian values of " . .
their optimism, their belief in the future, their codes of
craftsmanship and labor and thrift and self- discipline that really
built twentieth-century America. Since the Victorians
disappeared
the entire drift of this century has been toward a dissipation of
these values." (Lila, chp. 17)
You know that Pirsig claims that social values dominated the
Western political scene up to WW1. Yet, regardless of what time
we see as intellect's emergence, this is millennia after. Thus a
value level's influence may last a long time after it has been
superseded and the above is Pirsig talking about the last vestiges
of an social era.
> But, later on you place American values at the intellectual level.
> > If anything is intellect-value-based, the American DoI is, based as it is
> > on the Enlightenment ideas.
Likewise. The American Constitution is thousands of years after
the emergence of intellectual value (even my idea of it ;-) even so it
was still a dynamic thing to promote it politically in the late
sixteenth century.
> And reaffirm the intellectual level of the American experience here:
> > The American DoI is all about about individual freedom; in the
> > greater MOQ context intellect's independence from society. That
> > this was perceived as "dynamic" and "beautiful" in its time is no
> > wonder. All level's liberation from their parent was driven by a sense of
> > value of beauty - that's MOQ's whole point.
> I could guess at why the seeming discrepancy, but would rather have you
> explain describing America as both representative of Victorian morality
> and intellect's independence. Seems to me it can't be both.
America is not a static entity, its policy has reflected the various
stages of the social-intellect struggle as have the rest of the
Western culture (According to Pirsig the Asians have solved the
dynamic/static struggle. How this is to be understood in the social-
intellectual context I'm not sure) and the Arab World is now
entering this arena. Intellectual value will surely come out on top,
but it seems to be a long haul.
Sincerely
Bo
PS
"Newsweek" may not be your favorite reading, but there was an
interesting piece "Looking to the End of History" in the Dec/Jan
issue.
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