Date: Thu Feb 05 2004 - 11:41:16 GMT
Mati, Paul, ALL.
30 Jan. Mati said:
> Some time ago I brought up this issue with Bo. Basically I think that
> opportunities for the "potential" S/O split surely existed before
> Aristotle. I will use the analogy of cut wood. This morning as I was
> stoking the stove and noted a 4 inch round piece of maple that had
> dried and had a clear crack that traversed along the entire log, but
> even with this crack the log wasn't split. I am guess with a light
> swing of my ax it would be ripe to come apart.
I remember Mati's cracked log simile, but the thing I wish to raise
is this tendency to make the S/O divide sound like a FAULT
rather than the value it is supposed to be. It has begun to intrigue
An aside: The SOLAQI isn't an issue here, regardless how one
views the SOM - as intellect itself or as one intellectual pattern - it
is supposed to be of a higher quality level than the social.
> I see the S/O divide in a similar fashion. Pirsig even points out that
> it is hard to pin point exactly where the S/O divide takes place. I
> believe we can clearly see it with Aristotle. Other areas we clearly
> see the crack but we don't see the full split. I did look it up and
> Protagoras was around 500.bc. that puts in the realm with Thales,
> Anaximander, Anaximenes, and others, which were the precursor I am
> sure to Aristotle S/O split.
Total agreement with this, but again, why is SOM (as an
intellectual development) considered a decline compared to the
social level it sprang from. This is the MOQ version but there are
many thinkers who have postulated some major shift around this
time, and invariably it is presented as a "fall". Due to Scott we
know about Barfield's "participation" stages, but there are others,
not least the mother of them all, the Biblical "Fall from Grace".
But back to the MOQ - where the higher level is supposed to be
the better - the social-intellectual shift is presented as a let-down.
Socrates & Co. are the villains while the Sophists are the heroes.
In LILA Pirsig rails against intellect for trying to hide its social
origins, for thwarting society's job of keeping biological forces at
bay and thereby creating social chaos.
Why is this? Big question, maybe better reserved for a Focus
debate, but inputs are welcome.
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