From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu Feb 19 2004 - 20:18:48 GMT
Khoo:
The placing of mystic values above intellectual values is a very
significant observation and has tons of implications for the MOQ.
DM: I agree with this, anyone here disagree?
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Khoo Hock Aun" <hockaun@pc.jaring.my>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: MD MOQ and Islam
>
> Hello SWZwick,
>
> Thank you very much for your comments below. I found them very
> informative:
>
> SWZwick:
> Regarding Sufism, Islam, and the MOQ, I'd say that Sufism (or Alevism,
> which is the brand of Islam practiced in Turkey) is definitely a mystic
> tradition and the Alevis I know do in fact place intellectual values
> above societal values, and mystic values above intellectual values.
>
> Khoo:
> The placing of mystic values above intellectual values is a very
> significant observation and has tons of implications for the MOQ.
>
> SWZwick:
> (Many Alevi spiritual leaders are, in fact, atheist -- they would describe
> themselves as spiritual rather than religious). Alevism is very close to
> Zen, and there is a 40-step process for achieving enlightenment -- but
> there's also an ethnic identity among several Alevi groups. Without
> digressing too far from the MOQ theme, I'd say that when they get bogged
> down in who can and cannot trace his or her lineage back to Ali, they
> embark upon a path away from the true Alevi path and away from the MOQ.
>
> Khoo:
> If they are atheists, by definition they cannot be Muslims. Whereas if you
> are an atheist you can still regard yourself as a Zen buddhist. As for
> the methodolgy for enlightenment, one could say there are as many steps
> as there are individuals. But the transposition is significant.
>
>
> SWZwick:
> As to the question of how Sufism (or, in this case, Alevism) could
> influence the more dogmatic brands of Islam that are weraking havoc on
> the world, there is a quite simple and rational answer: basically, Alevis
> are in the camp that says that Mohammed had a mystic experience in his
> cave and was a bona fide holy man while living in Medina, but that when
> he moved to Mecca and became a warrior and a politician, he ceased to be
> a holy man and became instead a worldly man. They clearly differentiate
> between the "inspired" early verses of the Koran, and the later verses,
> which they say came from Mohammed's intellect rather than from his mystic
> center.
>
>
> Khoo:
> I am with you completely on this one. One could also say the evangelical
> Christ was mystical but after his cruxification (and the gospel he
> preached sounded very much that way too), the institutionalisation of the
> religion by Paul was an intellectual construction.
>
> SWZwick:
> You could say that Mohammed's ruminations on the world led him to a mystic
> experience, and while still freshly aglow with this experience he began
> to preach and to try and interpret his experience in light of traditions
> around him. While this experience was still fresh, he made quite a lot
> of sense. The Alevis tend to try and focus on what they perceive as
> spiritual passages, and ignore worldly passages. You can go to an Alevi
> culture festival and drink beer, dance, listen to incredible music, and
> generally have a very good time.
>
>
> Khoo:
> You could say the same for Christianity too. Isn't it obvious that the
> components of organised religion that strive towards the mystical and the
> original experience of the founder always gets regards are herectical
> blesphemous or plain insane, just as Pirsig himself was labelled as he
> battled the Western academic Church of Reason.
>
> SWZwick:
> To say that they are thriving in Turkey, however, is a bit of an
> overstatement. They still suffer quite a bit, and do much better in
> Europe -- where they can openly express their culture without worrying
> that a mob will storm the hotel they are staying in and burn it down, as
> happened in the town of Sivas just over a decade agooo
>
>
> Khoo:
> While they exist I believe there is still a faint hope that the mystical
> side of Islam will prevail. It is the intellectual aspects of the
> organised religion that threaten conflicts while the common mystical
> ground is placating and soothing force that is unfortunately ignored.
>
> Rgds
> Khoo Hock Aun
>
>
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