From: Leland Jory (ljory@mts.net)
Date: Thu Mar 18 2004 - 22:49:12 GMT
Platt Holden wrote:
>My definition of a hopeless task is trying to explain the MOQ to someone
>who 1) hasn't read Pirsig's books and 2) doesn't care about philosophy in
>the first place. <snip> But, such examples usually fall on deaf ears because, as you say,
>the idea that objects like cakes are patterns of morality seems so far out
>as to be utterly absurd.
>
>
Indeed. Sucks to be on the cutting edge of the Quality train, dunnit?
>P previously:
>
>
>>>No argument there. But, there are many social patterns besides static
>>>religious ones. The most important in the U.S. is our Constitution which
>>>guarantees individual rights to free speech, trial by jury, etc. This is
>>>the key social pattern that supports the intellectual level. Of course,
>>>it's under attack by socialists who think the collective should always
>>>take precedence over individual rights. The spread of laws against so-
>>>called "hate speech" is a case in point.
>>>
>>>
>
>L:
>
>
>>The thing is, there is no more inherent value in secular q-social
>>patterns than there is in religious q-social patterns.
>>
>>
>
>According to the MOQ there's more inherent value in intellectual-based
>patterns than faith-based patterns.
>
>
True, but I'm comparing social patterns, not intellectual ones. The fact
is, while the thinking that leads to laws is (hopefully) grounded in the
intellectual level, the laws themselves are part of a q-social pattern.
For instance, in Lodi, CA It is illegal to own or sell "Silly String". I
rest my case.
>>Your much-vaunted
>>constitution also guarantees the "Right to Bear Arms" which, arguably, is a
>>major player in the number of gun deaths in the US.
>>
>>
>
>One of Hitler's first moves when he took power was to make possession of
>arms by citizens illegal. Dictators never want to see their citizens
>exercising self-defense.
>
Whoa there. I wasn't starting a gun/anti-gun debate. Also, you've just
invoked Godwin's Law (but I won't hold that against you ;^{)> )
Godwin's Law: /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once
this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's
Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on
thread length in those groups.
- The Jargon File (http://www.ccil.org/jargon/)
Seriously, though, the point is that not everyone can agree that secular
q-social patterns are "better" than religious ones. Of course, then
again, agreement on anything is usually an amazing thing.
>>Actually, I've never read it (but plan to, now). As for computer
>>hardware and software needing an infusion of art, as a Mac user I
>>already have Quality in my computer. ;^{)>
>>
>>
>
>Absolutely. Mac is light years ahead of the competition in Quality. One
>look at a Mac computer next to, say, a Dell, is enough to show the
>difference. It's a wonderful example of how beauty and Quality go
>together. Mom may not think much about computers, but she tries to make a
>beautiful cake. :-)
>
>
Yeah. For instance, right now I'm using a Wintel box with Mozilla
Thunderbird for email. The manual formatting required to properly reply
in a thread is hellish, to say the least. I love Mail.app's select the
text and reply feature (where only the selected text from the original
message is inserted into the reply). It's the attention to details like
that which probably seem unimportant to others that sets Apple ahead of
the field. Of course, I'm not trying to start an OS Plaform flame war
either (just trying to preempt any "Macs suck!" posts from popping up.
Feel free to post them, but I'll send them straight to /dev/null. Have a
nice day :^{)> )
--
Leland Jory :^{)>
Cafeteria Spiritualist and Philosopher
"It is a puzzling thing. The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go
away, I'm looking for the truth.' and so it goes away. Puzzling." -
Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
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