From: steve (arborealman@comcast.net)
Date: Tue Mar 23 2004 - 02:00:28 GMT
You Moqers are getting way off subject. Steve P.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ledbury" <jim.ledbury@dsl.pipex.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: MD quality religion
> Hi folks,
>
>
> I apologise if this observation has been made before (it will be a
> little while before I digest the MD archive - certainly not at one
> sitting), but maybe the distinction between mystical and religious
> experience is that a mystical experience is an transcendental individual
> relationship with the cosmos whereas a religious experience is a
> trancendental relationship with humanity (and perhaps via that to the
> cosmos).
>
>
> The mystical can often bypass the human and can at times seem profoundly
> anti-human (thinking of Dao De Jing #5 "Heaven and Earth are not
> humane,//And regard the people as straw dogs.//The sage is not
> humane,//And regards all things as straw dogs.") whereas the religious
> will try to promote an integration with a human ethic. By human ethic I
> mean much more than simple social level morality, but an ethic which can
> inform the intellectual level and arguably a meta-intellectual level.
>
>
> Although I can't help David in his quest to find transcendance within
> the context of a particular Christian (or other) denomination, although
> technically atheistic myself I do find that I have a deep sympathy with
> the some aspects of Christianity, which I don't really find with other
> religions. Perhaps this is related to having being brought up as a
> Christian and relates to David's Jung quote "...if we desert our own
> foundations as though they were errors outlived...", although I have had
> some similar sympathy with aspects of Buddhism and Daoism.
>
>
> In particular I can find a profound peace of mind in relation to some
> church buildings. This is partly aesthetic, but there is an accord with
> their being used, possibly for centuries, in devotion to a human ethic
> (discounting the abuses of authority practiced is the past). This is
> of a different quality to the quality of mind I find on say hilltops and
> I would put it down to this human aspect. But also I find a peace of
> mind when I consider the sublimation of tradition into humanism (for
> want of a better word) that Jesus had in the 1st century CE. I find
> that this cannot be simply understood in intellectual terms, and that
> such a reduction degrades the quality of the understanding, although
> simple intellectual considerations would make me question any belief
> with regard to life after death (which I can feel to only mean
> integration with the ongoing human ethic), raising of the dead (a
> metaphor, or perhaps a simple consequence that without medical
> certification, many people have been considered dead, only to come back
> to life again) or reject biological absurdities (virgin birth). I find
> that in consideration of this human ethic one can find an immense solace
> in one's problems. I would think it is this aspect that allows people
> with drug dependencies to be cured and for people in a state of despair
> to find hope.
>
>
> I can only feel that it was his discovery of this transcendental human
> ethic that gave Jesus his strength to go to the cross. I can find very
> real meaning in the concept that "he died for our sins". I can find
> similar resonances in all aspects of profound self sacrifice to the
> human ethic. The manner and moral authority of Nelson Mandela derive
> from this. More ambivalently, the devotion of Mother Theresa to the
> dying of Calcutta (the object of her devotion was the Roman Catholic
> Church which to a degree taints it).
>
>
> As I said above, it would be a mistake to identify this with simply
> social level morality, although it has fairly obviously informed it down
> the ages. It certainly can't be encapsulated by the intellectual
> level. There are some aspects of DQ there to be sure, but I am
> unconvinced that it is DQ pure and simple because some of it is possible
> to be explained in terms of high quality religious thought (the 4 noble
> truths and the eight fold way are examples, so are many samples of
> Christian prayer and biblical psalms). But you probably do need a
> sympathy with them before the quality in these words becomes evident,
> and one cannot simply treat them as intellectual propositions and expect
> the same effect. It is in this manner that one could I guess experience
> transcendence in a Mass.
>
>
> It's in this regard that I am uncomfortable with such thinkers as
> Richard Dawkins: although I think he is spot on in his attacks on
> creationism and superstition, his intellectual SOM cannot grasp this
> example of religion and so he attempts to destroy it as well.
>
>
> Oh well, it's a nice sunny day, which would be a crime not to take in
> some of the limited natural aspects that one can in London.
>
>
> Regards,
> Jim
>
>
>
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