From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Tue Mar 23 2004 - 22:10:22 GMT
Hi Mark,
> Mark 22-03-04: Hi Platt,
> You say here, '...a process that took place long...' as if evolution is not
> happening right here and now? As an intellectual postulation, Evolution is
> happening all the time and at all levels simultaneously, here and now.
What is evolving at the inorganic level? At the biological level are you
aware of any new species lately? I haven't seen much evolution at the
social level since the Civil Rights Act. As for the intellectual level,
nothing has evolved in philosophy that I know of since Pirsig published
"Lila." All the really new stuff has come from science and technology.
What I'm driving at is that according to the MOQ, only living beings can
respond to DQ. Evolution now is human-driven and isn't occurring at all
levels simultaneously as claim.
Mark 24-03-04: It would seem we have different views upon this issue. This
would explain a great deal about why you don't click with the coherence stuff. I
don't view this as a problem, i feel relieved to have discovered one of the
barriers to progress.
In response, i would ask you to consider, for an experiment, a different
world?
In this world, everything is evolving every second of the day, all around
you. The Inorganic is evolving so slowly, as to appear to be standing idle. The
Organic is evolving faster, but you would have to live 1000 years to notice it.
The social is evolving faster still, but you have to look back on an entire
life span to see the detail. The intellectual is evolving daily with the
publication of new ideas and concepts. (Science is Intellectual value.)
Give it a go? And then see if the rest comes into focus?
>In
> MoQ terms this is described in two ways: 1. The event stream (DQ). (SODV)
> 2. Static patterns migrating towards DQ. (Lila.)
>
> Static patterns emerge from DQ and yet are migrating towards DQ.
> We may accommodate these two apparently contradictory points by postulating
> a relationship between SQ and DQ derived from experience: Coherence.
As I said before, 'coherence' has to do with thoughts, not with
relationships. (If you want to use 'coherence' as physicists do in
describing laser light and such, it would be helpful to say so. But I
don't know why you find it necessary to call upon scientific jargon to
describe your theories. Pirsig uses good old plain English. :-)
Mark 24-03-04: I honestly thought the term coherence was good old plain
English. When thinking about stable impermanent structures i felt it was helpful to
call them coherent.
> "Value, the leading edge of reality, is no longer an irrelevant offshoot of
> structure. Value is the predecessor of structure. It's the preintellectual
> awareness that gives rise to it. Our structured reality is preselected on
> the basis of value, and really to understand structured reality requires an
> understanding of the value source from which it's derived." [ZMM Ch.24]
Yes. This describes the creative energy of Dynamic Quality leaving static
patterns in its wake.
> In the Metaphysics of Quality, (Value is a synonym for Quality, so in the
> above quote we may regard Value as Quality) Quality has two aspect, SQ and
> DQ. Therefore, to paraphrase: 'Our structured reality is preselected on the
> basis of a relationship between SQ and DQ.'
I really don't see the significance of "relationship." If you split
anything into two aspects or parts, there's bound to be a relationship
between the parts.
Mark 24-03-04: The significance of relationships between patterns is that
they appear to become coherent. It can be argued that experience shows us this to
be the point where DQ is at work.
If you are still holding in your head the world view i suggested above, you
are not only surrounded by, but participate IN evolution as it is happening ri
ght NOW. YOU are evolving right now. That is to say, you are emerging from the
event stream, and heading towards DQ right now. When this is going well, your
patterns are coherent. If you are playing tennis and hitting the ball well,
you are an excellent player - coherent.
> "The Dynamic reality that goes beyond words is the constant focus of Zen
> teaching. Because of their habituation to a world of words, philosophers do
> not often understand Zen. When philosophers have trouble understanding the
> distinction between static and Dynamic Quality it can be because they are
> trying to include and subordinate all Quality to thought patterns. The
> distinction between static and Dynamic quality is intended to block this."
> [letter from Robert Pirsig to Anthony McWatt, quoted in "Pirsig's
> Metaphysics of Quality"]
>
> Thought patterns cannot deal with DQ, but thought patterns ARE patterns,
> and share a relationship with DQ as described above: 1. The event stream
> (DQ). (SODV) 2. Static patterns migrating towards DQ. (Lila.)
About this migration of static patterns towards DQ. The only place I find
Pirsig talking like this specifically is about Lila and patterns of life.
"Lila is composed of static patterns of value and these patterns are
evolving towards Dynamic Quality . . . All life is a migration of static
patterns of quality toward Dynamic Quality." (Lila-11).
Later Pirsig writes:
"And beyond that is an even more compelling reason; societies and thoughts
and principles themselves are no more than sets of static patterns. These
patterns cannot by themselves perceive or adjust to Dynamic Quality. Only
a living being can do that."
So the 'migration' is limited to living beings whereas your thesis seems to
imply that its descriptive of the entire evolutionary process, including
the evolution of the inorganic level. Something's amiss.
> Mark 22-03-04: Thought is patterned. Patterns are migrating towards DQ.
Patterns of life are migrating, not all patterns.
Mark 24-03-04: If what you say is so, then my thesis is wrong.
> Patterns emerge from DQ. These are accommodated in the term Coherence.
> Coherence can be extreme - severe. This possibility is right outside
> everyday experience, but when encountered, can be a revelation. An example
> would be to be in the presence of a master artist. The coherence of a
> master can influence (raise coherence of) the open student dramatically. In
> exceptional situations, coherence may approach opaqueness to DQ:
Let me put this in my own words and see if you agree. Patterns emerge from
DQ. Sometimes when these patterns emerge in your presence you feel a sense
of awe and wonder. You might even experience a feeling of unity with the
whole world, a peak experience where words like patterns and DQ fall so
far short of describing what you feel as to be meaningless. This
experience of total bliss might happen as you listen to a concerto
performed by master violinist.
I hope this comes close. If not, I'm lost as to what you mean.
Thanks for your patience.
Best regards,
Platt
Mark 24-03-04: Your description sounds good. However, i have attempted to
accommodate DQ as motivation and DQ as goal of evolution in one 'nowness' i.e.
Coherence. You can listen to a master violinist; he is already a highly coherent
patterning, otherwise he/she would not be a master? Your pattern merge
certainly, and in doing so are dragged into coherence.
That's the way i would put it.
This is going to run for a bit i think?
I welcome your critique Platt.
All the best,
Mark
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