From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Fri Jun 04 2004 - 21:47:20 BST
Hi Johnny,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
On 4 Jun 2004 at 19:02, johnny moral wrote:
msh said 05/24:
At best, the only morally justified action is that the people of Iraq
be allowed to shape their society and culture in any way they see
fit, not just as seen fit by the US government. That is, when I speak
of a corrupted society being destroyed, I mean destroyed, in the
sense of dramatically altered, FROM WITHIN, by the people who live in
that society. I think Pirsig would argue that a heavy burden of proof
of the need for societal self-defense rests on the preemptively
attacking society. As we've seen, in the case of Iraq, nothing even
approximating any such proof has been presenting.
Johnny:
So, it would seem that FROM WITHIN is the key to how you dismantled
this argument (but I don't see any reference to the MoQ here, so
maybe I didn't find the right post?). So you are hoping that
Haliburton will destroy itself from within, I suppose? Do you want
"authority, hierarchy, and domination in every aspect of life" to
destroy themselves from within? Or do you want to "challenge them"?
msh says:
I was thinking of the MOQ in terms of its pretty clear notion of self-
defense as the only justification for one organism (or society)
destroying another. Or for one society to destroy organisms within
it that threaten the society itself. I can find no justification in
the MOQ for one society destroying another under any other
circumstances. Nor can I in Chomsky, though I concede that the short
quote I offered for comment can be interpreted that way by someone
who, for whatever reason, is not thoroughly familiar with Chomsky.
My fault.
As for Haliburton, et al, I think that, if we can show it to to be a
threat to the society of which it is a part, then that society may
legitimately dismantle it. Note that this does not mean that, say,
China should attack the US, killing 100,000 people, in order to
dismantle Haliburton for us, and in the process replacing our
cultural and governmental institutions with ones of its own liking.
Johnny:
Clearly, the idea is that Chomsky wants us to "seek OUT" these
repressive things "in every aspect of life", "to increase the scope
of human freedom". How can that be read to exclude challenging
authority in Iraq, or anywhere?
msh says:
You are right, if you limit all of Chomsky's thought to what is
contained in this single quote. Again, my fault for too narrow a
focus. I believe a wider reading reveals the idea that we should
focus on ironing out our own wrinkles, before taking it upon
ourselves to "fix" the governmental and cultural institutions of
others. And even if one society could be seen to be "perfectly
moral", there's still the problem of proving self-defense before the
"perfect society" can morally dismantle another. No?
Johnny:
I see nothing in his quote that says to keep it in house, that we
have to respect boundaries of any type, be they societal,
international, or heirarchical. ... And I see nothing in his quote
that says not to do it with bombs and bayonets.
msh says:
You're right. There's nothing in this short quote that would
contradict your interpretation. In Chomsky's 80 books, hundreds of
formal talks and interviews, thousands of informal talks and emails
and ink-mails, there's plenty.
Johnny:
Now, I can see that in this war, the Giant has increased its coercion
and control over a huge part of the world, and I don't consider the
Iraqi people any freer than they were before, nor will I when they
all have MTV and abortion.
msh says:
Yes, and me neither.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
>From: "Mark Steven Heyman" <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD Noam Chomsky
>Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 10:42:44 -0700
>
>Hi all,
>
>Yeah it's a good one, all right. So good that Platt is trotting it
>out again after I used the MOQ to dismantled it last month in
>another thread. I won't repeat myself, as anyone who wants to can
>look it up.
>
>I'd still be interested in some thoughtful comments.
>
>Best to all,
>msh
>
>
>
>
>On 4 Jun 2004 at 15:26, johnny moral wrote:
>
>Platt:
> >Glad to see Chomsky's eloquent justification for invading Iraq.
> >
> >Platt
>
>Good one, Platt! I hadn't thought about that when I read that
quote,
>but you're absolutely right, it does advocate dismantling Saddam's
>illegitimate authority, doesn't it?
>
>
>
>
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