From: gav (gav_gc@yahoo.com.au)
Date: Fri Jun 18 2004 - 00:06:25 BST
hey johnny,
-- johnny moral <johnnymoral@hotmail.com> wrote: > hi
gav,
>
> Um, no i think people are conscious of social level
> patterns and have to be.
when people are *conscious* of social level patterns
they become intellectual, ie signified.
> When people wave hello to their neighbor, I think
> they are conscious of
> doing so.
if they are conscious of doing so then they are
self-conscious ie, in intellectual mode - viewing
themselves from the mind's eye. the *impulse* to wave
is unconscious: this is the important distinction i
think.
When people bring gifts to a wedding,
> they do it consciously.
again the impulse is unconscious but like any*thing*
can be brought into consciousness.
> Third level patterns are just ways that biological
> patterns (in our case,
> humans) tend to interact with each other.
not quite. the social level applies only to human
biological patterns i believe.
If the
> pattern describes ways
> individual biological patterns tend to interact, it
> is third level, a social
> pattern.
again not quite right as i take the moq, but i may be
mistaken.
>
> But if it describes the way social patterns tend to
> interact, it is an
> intellectual pattern. If someone is describing how
> marriage (social
> pattern) relates to patriarchy (another social
> pattern), they are creating
> an intellectual pattern.
yes i think that is a good way of putting it. looking
at it that way the social pattern of, taking your
example, the impulse to wave to your neighbour, once
related to the social pattern of the self or subject
becomes an intellectual pattern. ie we are conscious
of it
Peaople are individual
> biological units that form
> social patterns of workers and owners, and those
> social patterns create
> intellectual patterns when they interact.
>
> That's been my take on how the levels relate. What
> do you think?
i like your take johnny but i am unsure as to whether
social patterns are exclusively human. anyone care to
jump in?
>
> Johnny
>
> >From: gav <gav_gc@yahoo.com.au>
> >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >Subject: Re: MD distinguishing 3rd and 4th level
> >Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:34:37 +1000 (EST)
> >
> >would everyone agree that the simplest and major
> >distinction between the 3rd and 4th levels is that
> the
> >3rd level operates unconsciously, whereas the 4th
> >level operates consciously.
> >the evolution of consciousness being the point at
> >which the 4th level broke from its parent 3rd
> level.
> >
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